Sara Ferrer: [00:00:00] Welcome to Fearless and Flawed. Today's guest is Cristina Penin Ferrer, a multidimensional healer, and DEIB consultant based in Madrid, Spain. Born and raised in Queens, New York. Cristina brings a global perspective to her work, blending spiritual guidance with a deep commitment to equity. Inclusion and anti-racism to help individuals and organizations transform from the inside out.

Serena Reynolds: And I'm Serena and I help bold leaders become the go-to experts in their space. 

Sara Ferrer: And I'm Sara, an email marketing pro here to convert clicks into cash. Together, Serena and I are two women in charge. Digging into the fearless, the flawed, and the fabulous journeys of female founders rewriting the rules. 

Serena Reynolds: So let's dive in.

Serena Reynolds: Welcome to our show, Cristina. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to [00:01:00] be here. So what exactly is DEI Work and what sparked your in interest in it? 

Cristina Penin: Great. So DEI work stands for Diversity, equity and Inclusion, and I've added on the belonging I and other professionals. I'm not the only one who's added on the B to the work.

Cristina Penin: And so what, basically, what I do and what other DEI professionals do is we help organization take a look at their culture, their policies, what they're doing at work, to be more inclusive, to really cater to their employees, to increase retention, increase diversity, to increase their business model.

Cristina Penin: Increased success. All of that is tied to DEI work more profit, more diversity is very much tied together. What got me into this work is really my own personal journey as a queer Latin woman. Growing up in New York City, I've always been, you know, doing this work, whether it's like in the moment in other roles without [00:02:00] it being the title, but I would always ask to kind of be the voice.

Cristina Penin: For people of color or for women of color. Right. And I was always kind of in those spaces. I've also just experienced a lot of being the only one in the room and know the impact that that has on you as a worker. And so really wanting to shift those spaces for folks has been my priority. I love that.

Sara Ferrer: That is like so relevant. And we'll touch on like the relevancy now, probably more than ever. But I, I'm curious for someone who, we've all kind of heard the acronym. What does that mean? Break it down for us. Like what's the work that's done? How are you getting, how are you finding the people to put in these spaces?

Sara Ferrer: What spaces are these people being put into? So really just peel off, you know, the layers of the onion up. What is the core of what you do, and then how do you make the magic happen? Because I think sometimes we see these. Buzz acronyms or these buzz words, but people don't actually get it. And I wanna un the [00:03:00] listeners to understand what it is so that then we can layer on impact.

Cristina Penin: Yeah. So I can start like with something really simple and broad. Like if a client has asked me, you know, we're having an issue with retention and in exit interviews folks are stating that it just doesn't feel like they're, they belong in this at the, it's a culture clash. That's one of the themes or, you know, issues with management, et cetera, needs inclusive leadership, what have you.

Cristina Penin: And there's very easy, and I put this in quotation marks with air quotes, easy and quote unquote quick wins, right? That we can implement. So for example, if we do, you know, most companies enact a six month manager check-in, right? They do a manager check-in every six months, you know, check on KPIs, all of that.

Cristina Penin: If you just start incorporating. In that check in, something as simple as like, are there any needs that have come up for you in these six months that we need to address? Is there anything that we can do to make your goals more [00:04:00] attainable, more accessible for you? And what that looks at like is how is the project management, we're also dealing with ableism here.

Cristina Penin: How are, how could someone's ability change during that time? Is this task still accessible for them? If you're looking at neurodivergent folks, like we have a really hard time sharing what we can't say and do something, and so when that question is asked directly to us, it kind of opens up a space. So that's a really small quick fix that we can do, that I can have managers implement in their next check-ins.

Cristina Penin: That will shift a bit, that culture, right? And then that also looks at, you know, adding pronouns and how do we introduce ourselves in meetings and things like that, that can also create more inclusive spaces. 

Sara Ferrer: Interesting. And so I guess, you know, when I think about, and I love this, I mean, I'm obviously all this sounds great in community and then I wanna ask, because when we think business two, I think as a former business owner, um, and as many business owners listening here, there's a balance of profit, [00:05:00] right?

Sara Ferrer: Like, is the right person there for the right job? And I think, you know, in the news, what's been. I wouldn't even say in the news, in conversations, you know, I've heard in my experience, um, you know, sometimes, uh, I'm gonna give you an example. This is a real life example and I'd love to kind of hear you walk through this.

Sara Ferrer: So, um, my husband at one point was working in private equity and historically, historically is a male dominated, uh, industry. And he said, you know, they saw in the office that, especially with DEI, they needed a woman in the office. Because there was the, the optics of, well, you know, look at your board and look at this.

Sara Ferrer: And he of course is all in favor raised by a strong mom. But his observation was this woman came into the office and he quite frankly, thought she was set up for failure because he, he found that her skillset, whatever it wa, it didn't match what the expectation was. It's she [00:06:00] wasn't able to perform. 'cause it's very metrics based competitive industry.

Sara Ferrer: And again, his kind of observation was, well, we did, we, we checked off the box. I'm not sure. Her experience was great. In fact, I know it wasn't. I know we have all the men in the office going, well, you see this is why? Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And particularly one of the conversations that came up, because I was curious and I said, well, why?

Sara Ferrer: He said, I'm gonna tell you what happens. A lot of times after a big win or after a big sale or deal, the boys go out for drinks. A woman is there after a couple hours, she kind of reads the room naturally and I, I can empathize and sympathize with this like, oh, boys, but he says that's where the camaraderie happens, is that late night bonding, you see your manager, your superior, so.

Sara Ferrer: I wanna put that out there because I think that's a real scenario that happens, 

Serena Reynolds: bro club. Right. Bro club. Right [00:07:00] bro Club, exactly. Is this is a real thing that, it's a real thing. I've seen, I I, I've witnessed it. I have been subject to it. 

Sara Ferrer: Yes. So, so let me understand. Like, because she, she's not winning now.

Sara Ferrer: She's seeing as. There's that lack of trust, if you will, because you weren't the boys. There's that, and we all know that, as Serena has always eloquently said, people like to work and be around those that they like, know and trust. Right. Just walk me through that scenario. Is that common? Is that an outlier?

Sara Ferrer: How would someone come to you and say, Cristina, we hired. The, you know, the diversity and inclusion higher and it was horrific because of these reasons. What would you say to that? 

Cristina Penin: Well, there's a couple of kind of red flags and some orange flags and some green flags. So the green flag is the noticing that there's an issue.

Cristina Penin: Noticing that representation is needed and representation is a start, but it's not the goal. Right. [00:08:00] And so that's number one. So then it's where are we sourcing from? If you're telling me that this person wasn't, and in this case wasn't qualified for the role, then you're not sourcing correctly because you can't tell me there aren't qualified women to do, um, private equity work.

Cristina Penin: Right? And so where are we sourcing candidates from? Is it that same kind of bro club network? Hey, I went to this all boys school, this is my network, this is where I, we hire from this alumni network, et cetera. And how can we diversify that? Right. So that would be like my, my first thing that I would say. I think this idea of also having a DEI hire is really problematic because while that is, it's important to say, Hey, we need representation.

Cristina Penin: But noting that one person as a DEI hire kind of diminishes their, already their role and they're kind of, oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Their power and leverage at the start. [00:09:00] As soon as they, as soon as they begin right, it's already setting 'em up for failure because they're already, folks are already gonna be like, they didn't deserve it.

Cristina Penin: They're just a DEI hire. Right? So that's kind of the, my initial thoughts. Then I think the other side, inclusion and community building is huge, as long as everybody's included in them. It's like team building is great and that is what folks, they wanna feel included. But if it's at a cigar club where I don't smoke cigars, I'm not gonna go, I'm missing out on that potential next project that Serena was at that cigar club, but so were you, Sara?

Cristina Penin: So they thought, oh yeah, I do have that project on Monday. Remind me and I'll tell you about, about that new client. I wasn't there. So I'm not even top of mind, right. Where maybe I would also be a good, a good fit for that client. 

Serena Reynolds: It's even worse if you weren't invited. Right, exactly. For example, um, it's not just a case of, of that you don't smoke cigars or drink whiskey or whatever, [00:10:00] whatever it is.

Serena Reynolds: It's the fact you weren't, you weren't even on that invitation. Exactly. Exactly. 

Cristina Penin: So a lot of times, I, I challenge. Leadership leader to to think about like when you're making decisions, who's sitting at that table and are all of your employees and in different hierarchy levels represented? Like do they all have a voice?

Cristina Penin: Right? Because if they don't, then naturally, because we have implicit biases, we don't do this intentionally. We will be excluding folks because we just don't think about it 

Serena Reynolds: Surely just having one woman on a team. It's just not, it's not diversity. That's not adding diversity. That's just adding a member to pacify.

Serena Reynolds: It's not the right metric. 

Cristina Penin: I will share that I was once leading with a client and I was working with the women's ERG, with the employee resource group, and we were working on more inclusive policies in terms of bathrooms and working with their pride, ERG [00:11:00] as well to make universal bathrooms non-gendered, et cetera.

Cristina Penin: Something that came up and I was summarizing the notes. I was like, I and one woman on the team said, I haven't heard anything about a space for chest feeding. I was like, oh, I am not a mom. I have never chest fed before. I just kind of assumed it could happen in the bathroom, and I said that. I was like, I don't know.

Cristina Penin: I guess I thought it would happen in the bathroom. And she was like, no, I don't wanna do you eat your dinner in a bathroom? Right? 

Serena Reynolds: Like, I don't wanna, why would you feed your baby in a bathroom? 

Cristina Penin: Exactly. I don't wanna pump in a bathroom. I don't wanna, I need a space. We need a space to do this. That is, you know, and I was like, oh my gosh, absolutely.

Cristina Penin: 100. I didn't even think about that. And I'm just one woman in this space who's whole job is to think about all of these things. Right. But that is a diversity of thought that we need. We need those different experiences for, for that diverse thought. [00:12:00] 

Sara Ferrer: What are the challenges like, I mean, because this sounds all good, right?

Sara Ferrer: When you say it, I'm like, this makes sense, right? Like yes, we know that to, so what are the challenges? Why, why isn't everyone like, Hey, we get it. Green flags more inclusive. Is it a profit thing? Is it a, we need more resources to find the right people? Is it a lack of education in certain industries that, like what's the big challenge that we're out here in 2025?

Sara Ferrer: Still wondering why the one woman on a 30 person men team failed when it's like real. 

Serena Reynolds: Do you even think 2025 is any different from where we were 30 years ago? 

Cristina Penin: I mean, that's a such a loaded question because what, what isn't the challenge, right? Is it the fact that DEI right now is under a lot of scrutiny and backlash?

Cristina Penin: Just the words right alone? And so it's like if someone even brings it up in some places in the world, not everywhere. It's like, no, we don't wanna hear those words. We don't wanna hear that acronym, right? So that's one challenge. The other challenge [00:13:00] is that this isn't easy. It's not easy work. It's not easy work to make sure that everyone's included.

Cristina Penin: It's not easy work to show care and compassion for all people. It is hard work, and you have to show up court every day. And so if you're not actually invested in it, then it's not going to work, and you're not going to see the results that you're looking for. The results that you're looking for are your retaining top talent.

Cristina Penin: Retaining top talent equals better profit. How you retain top talent by creating diverse spaces and making sure that folks feel included and heard and like they belong and they're valued in that space. You don't have all those things, which is hard work. You're not gonna retain that top talent. They're gonna go somewhere else, 

Sara Ferrer: brilliantly said.

Sara Ferrer: Right? So when people go like, but how can we make the money? You're retaining that top talent and that's, that's the money maker. And you mentioned something which I wanted to double click on, is you said in some parts of the world. Dive deeper into, because you're from Queens, originally from Queens, New York, you're living in Madrid now.

Sara Ferrer: Walk us through the experience of your [00:14:00] career, whether it's different countries or different industries that are leaning more into this, that are like, yeah, let's go here. Let's go in like, like give us the good, the bad, the ugly from your whole career, what you've seen, you know, up to nowadays 

Cristina Penin: I'll say that I saw a big uptick as we, I think we all did in 2020.

Cristina Penin: After the murder of George Floyd and folks were really committed to doing this work, to doing the DEI work. Um, and I, particularly from the United States, did start my career and still look at it through this lens as an anti-racist lens. Um, that is where I, that's where I look at my work through. That's what the lens I look at my work.

Serena Reynolds: I'm English, so let me just, just throw in from my perspective, from as an English person, New York is a very diverse place. East Coast is very diverse in the us I'm not sure whether my soul thinks the rest of the US is quite so diverse. [00:15:00] 

Cristina Penin: It's, you're correct in that, in that observation in general, you see it how we vote, the blue state.

Cristina Penin: Tend to be kind of like on the coast, and the red states tend to be kind of in the middle. Within that, we also have pockets, right? Like I'm from New York City, New York City. The five boroughs typically pretty blue. But then you get out to Long Island, which can be somewhere like 10 minutes away from Queens, New York, and it's pretty red, right?

Cristina Penin: It's it's pretty Trump loving, pretty Republican, right? It's pretty red. And so, which is not the stereotype that folks have of New York City. Also New York in general also borders Canada. Right. It's huge, a huge state. So you do have a lot of diversity within those states, but generally, yes, you do have that kind of more openness to do the work.

Cristina Penin: And I had clients even in Virginia, which is not your typical state, that will say, I wanna be doing this work. Oh, they hired me for a couple of years up until last year, [00:16:00] where it was like taking a pause on this type of work. Taking a pause because they do receive government funding and could not have on contract or even invoice from someone whose title is DEI.

Serena Reynolds: So what did you do about that? I lost a client. See, that's just, you could have changed the job title. 

Cristina Penin: That's what I'm seeing a lot of folks do. A lot of companies are trying to work around it. 

Serena Reynolds: Retention officer. 

Cristina Penin: Exactly, exactly. There's a lot of, a lot of roundabout ways that folks are trying to continue to do this very important work in, in spite of the challenges being, you know, being given to companies.

Serena Reynolds: So what is the challenge? I mean, why, why is it now not deemed to be important to carry out this work? 

Cristina Penin: The challenge point blank right now is that Donald Trump has threatened to remove funding federal funding for any organization that [00:17:00] receives federal funding and has anyone on staff that states they're A DEI employee, like they work in DEI.

Cristina Penin: So if there was a Chief D Diversity officer, that person can no longer either have that title, can no longer be in that role, right? Because if they receive any sort of federal funding, they can't, they won't have access to it. A lot of it is tied up in the courts and things like that, right? But preemptively companies are of course concerned, you know, their funding is depe, like their work is dependent on that funding, right?

Cristina Penin: So it's something that, it's like, do you jeopardize that or not? And that's a hard, you know, the social justice fighter here in my heart wants to be like, yeah, go for it. Don't give up on the work. But also then it's, then you don't have a company anymore, potentially. That's not always a, a risk that folks are willing to take, which is understandable.

Sara Ferrer: I mean, that makes perfect sense, right? I mean, like, it's easy to say [00:18:00] until they're like, I gotta keep the lights on. And do you find in Spain that the, the challengers are similar? Do you find that like, again, barring. You know, barring what the government has done, that, that's a pretty big, you know, finite, that you can't really work around that.

Sara Ferrer: Right. For the current time. But, you know, I always think of it like, I always liken it to when, when people say, well, you don't understand, you know, healthcare is so complicated and it's so outrageously detailed that that's why the US can't have universal healthcare. And you're like. But like everyone else figured it out.

Sara Ferrer: Like, I'm not, I'm one of these people, and I always say this as someone who lives outside the us, you know, like, yeah. You know, like Spain is the size of Texas, so Texas problems are confined to Texas. US pro, you know, we're very big state. We have a lot of different needs and wants. So I, I don't, I don't simplify it down into something as simple as like just Norway [00:19:00] did.

Sara Ferrer: But I guess, is there any, again, it, let's say hypothetical. Trump does not ban completely, but, but there's still resistance. 'cause there always was resistance. There was always resistance. Yes. What are things that we can learn, and I'm hoping maybe you can give some insight if Spain is better in this case, or maybe not.

Sara Ferrer: What's some insights or do you give like, well hey, they did this in this industry, in this country, or Hey, they did this in this industry, you know, on the west coast and you guys are, you know, on, in, in the Midwest like. Are you able to kind of throw out what has worked and if so, are people receptive or do you just say, listen, this is kind of a lost cause?

Sara Ferrer: People are, have a really hard time understanding it. I'm gonna focus in more progressive places that already get it. 

Cristina Penin: So it's, it's, it's hard because my work would be so easy if I could just focus on progressive places. I would have like the time of my life always. Right. Ideally, I'm not needing. 

Serena Reynolds: Ideally, what you are trying to do is put yourself out of work.[00:20:00] 

Cristina Penin: Exactly. Exactly. That's the, that is the ideal. That is the ideal. And I, and I think what, what kind of the gaps that I saw sometimes and, and I was guilty of this as well, is folks not being sure what inclusivity looked like and they had questions about it, and being afraid to ask the questions, being afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Cristina Penin: Right. There were two groups of people. There were the groups that were all outright like, I'm against this. I, and, and at the end of the day, they really are like the groups of people, the small groups of people who are sexist, homophobic, racist, et cetera. Then there's the folks that, that's their impact, not their intention, but they're not the afraid to ask the questions for fear of how do you not know this is 2025?

Cristina Penin: How do you not, how are you not aware that you can't say these words? How you know, that kind of response. Which to some degree I understand, but this is where then I come in as a third party person [00:21:00] with no judgment. I will accept you at the journey that you're at, and I'm here to coach you through that journey.

Cristina Penin: Right. That's the whole point. Because if we start relying on just other employees in a company that, Hey, do you mind, Cristina, do you mind teaching this person about, you know, what it, why it's important to like, like gay people? And I'm just like, I'm not gonna defend like my sexuality and like my life to some, like, then I have to educate you on something that is me.

Cristina Penin: Um, and that's what a lot of times happens to, you know, employees of color, queer employees, neurodivergent employees are asking you mind like teaching us a bit more about how it could be. And it's all done with good intention. The intention is to make it more inclusive, but that's not the impact on the person that then is having to do the teaching.

Cristina Penin: Right. So I think the pushback a lot of times was, was one outright pushback. And the other pushback was a bit more nuanced in that folks just were afraid to speak up. So they avoided the, the topic [00:22:00] altogether. They were like, sure, whatever you want me to do, I'll do. Or they'll be like, you know what, I'm not, I don't understand the pronoun thing, so I'm never gonna share my pronouns.

Cristina Penin: I don't understand it. Right. And so it's kind, it's so layered. It's so layered. What I think has helped. Honestly, and, and always helps every organization, every company that I've ever worked with, that I've done inclusive leadership with, you just, you just start with that. How are we better equipping ourselves to empathize with other people and understanding the different stories that we all bring to the table?

Cristina Penin: The three of us are all coming in with different lenses, different experiences, and different stories. Something that works for me will not work for you, will not work for you, and vice versa. And maybe one thing will work for all three of us, but being able to understand like the intersection of our identities and how that impacts how we go through the world makes a difference.

Cristina Penin: That's the, the place to start, in my opinion. 

Sara Ferrer: And is that like a, 'cause I love what you're saying, right? And I, I [00:23:00] identify, right. I think you can all find our ourselves kind of in that middle pool. It's like, I wanna do better, but, oh God, like, you know, we all have, I'll speak for myself. I have those one or two hyper progressive hyper liberal friends that you kind of walk on eggshells around because you know they mean well.

Sara Ferrer: But God forbid you say something then you feel like, I get the, in 2025, you're saying, and it's, I didn't know that the rules have ch like, and again, these are usually very subtle things. These like, these are not like the big categories of like, you don't go there, but. Trying to, I think sometimes most people, to your point in the journey of trying to understand, are gonna make mistakes.

Sara Ferrer: Like anything, it's like riding a bike, right? Like, oh, I know how to ride this type of bike, but this is kind of different, so I gotta adjust my footing a bit. And if all you're saying is you can't ride the bike, but come on, you're a grown up. It deflates you. And then what ends up happening, and I found myself in these situations, it's like, I don't even wanna do, [00:24:00] I don't get dumb, you know?

Sara Ferrer: Like this is dumb. That's, that's how you feel. And I can say that as someone who's pretty forward thinking, and it's like, well, I'm defeated now. I know I'm a pretty intelligent person, but if I'm gonna kind of feel like I don't get it, then maybe it's not to be gotten by someone like me, because I'm usually with it.

Sara Ferrer: But I think it's, it's, to your point, any type of learning. Usually is elevated by a soft, gentle. Let's work through this. If someone's hitting your head with a ruler saying, you idiot, you don't know what two plus two is, you're gonna feel shaky when the teacher calls on you. So how do we like it? Sounds great.

Sara Ferrer: I love what you're saying about, you know, that, but how do we implement that? How do we address that head on? You mentioned the, that's great. Do we just call it out? Like, listen, a lot of, you're gonna fuck up when you talk about this. A lot of you're gonna make mistakes. Do we just go right for it instead of kind of dancing around it like y'all mean Well, but you're fucking it up.

Serena Reynolds: Well, I, I dunno whether people [00:25:00] should, I, you know, I, I don't know what the rules are. I dunno what the rules are, to be honest. Um, I don't know. 'cause what rules are we talking about? Rules for what? Exactly. Exactly. You know, bathrooms, who cares, you know? Um, I would, I know um, in the UK there was some kind of ruling on bathroom, gender, bathrooms and stuff like that.

Serena Reynolds: Genuinely don't care. I could tell, I could tell you what my friend said about that. Um, but it would be a bit rude even on a podcast. She's, she's like, I've been using female bathrooms for years. I've, nobody's seen my, um, woowoo in there, so what do I care if there's a man in there? So that was the outline.

Cristina Penin: That's that's what, so there's so much here and, and I think we're mo for sure we're gonna fuck up. And I think that is the understanding that we should all have. The caveat to [00:26:00] this is sometimes when I have fucked up and I have fucked up in front of someone who is like directly impacted by it, I've misgendered someone.

Cristina Penin: I've used the wrong pronoun, for example. I didn't know, my ignorance does not dismiss the impact that I had, and so immediately I need to then address it, not make a big deal out of it. I'm not gonna, but it's like, I apologize. I misgendered. That won't happen again. I, I can, you know, you address the impact that was, that was done.

Cristina Penin: And sometimes like they might shut down and not wanna speak and we have to accept that. Like, they're not here to educate you in that moment. Right. The other side is, for example, Serena, you just shared like you don't care about what bathroom 

Serena Reynolds: it was, it was about transgenders actually. Uh, um, yeah. About them using female bathrooms.

Serena Reynolds: And it's genuinely, you know, it's not my call. I personally don't care. 

Cristina Penin: And I think something else that we can do in our day-to-day is [00:27:00] when we have those, that understanding of, I might not fully understand it, but I understand that any woman that identifies as a woman that wants to use the bathroom, I don't care who you are in the stall next to me.

Cristina Penin: And if you have that idea, that's an inclusive idea. You might not understand all of the things, but speaking up about it is super important. 

Serena Reynolds: My, my take on that is I under, I, I don't care who's in the store next to me, but I also completely understand why they would be uncomfortable walking into a male toilet.

Serena Reynolds: A hundred percent. You know, that's my stand on it. I, I, like, I liked what my friend said, you know, I've been using the bathroom for X amount of years. No one's seen my woo woo, so why do I care? Um. I paraphrased her, by the way. She didn't say woo woo. Um, but yeah, I, I mean, I, I just think it was, you know, I mean that went through Parliament and caused all kinds of conversations and it just seemed like [00:28:00] why can't we just let people be, you know, why can't we not just let people choose what bathroom they, they want?

Serena Reynolds: I have been known to rush into the men's toilets because there's no queue maybe that should be addressed first. Maybe it should be addressed. Why do they get the same space as us when they don't need it? Because it's mostly designed by men. Exactly. Exactly. 

Sara Ferrer: But do you feel Cristina, like, because Serena, I, I, I agree with many things.

Sara Ferrer: You're, you're saying here, some of the things are like live and let, live that. But do you feel Cristina, like nowadays, like people. Where are you at nowadays in, in your career? We know the administration in the us like is it such an uphill battle now that you're like, Hey, I'm gonna put like corporate clients or, you know, on hold, I'm gonna go more into this coach.

Sara Ferrer: Like, where are you at personally with, you know what, you know, you know what works, but you also know the obstacles. Where, where are you at now? Where's the future of this going? Do we just doing the hard work or is there another way to pivot? [00:29:00] While kind of skating around the, the, the government, like, what's the future look like?

Serena Reynolds: Are, are we going backwards? 

Sara Ferrer: Are we going backwards? Yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: Or you know, 

Serena Reynolds: have things 

Serena Reynolds: twisted. 

Cristina Penin: I do think that there is, there's so much that it's overwhelming and that's intentional, right? It's intentional to overwhelm us, to make us feel like, okay, there's too much to focus on. I don't wanna do, I don't wanna look at anything.

Cristina Penin: And that that is an intentional tactic, right? It's to get us to just not, don't look here. So look at this, right? I don't think we're going backwards 'cause I think the consciousness of the people is higher. I think we're more aware than ever before. I think in terms of my priorities, it's hard because there's so many, you know, trans folks are under attack in most countries at an unprecedented rate 'cause it's being named outright.

Cristina Penin: Right. Whereas prior it was lack of access to things without it being named outright. So there were, there [00:30:00] were still, you know, ability to get insurance coverage for certain things, and now it's just being outright denied. Or outright criminalized. And so those things are things that like we have to address.

Cristina Penin: I don't do that professionally because most corporations don't have an impact in that. But in terms of advocating for and speaking out about it, as a cisgendered woman, I have the power in that situation and I should use my voice to advocate for this community. Right. I think also the priority of. I don't know.

Cristina Penin: I mean, there's so many groups of folks. You know, we have a genocide happening. You know, we, we have folks in the us migrants in the US being attacked. There's so many things that need our attention and care and, you know, advocacy right now that it can be really difficult. So the DEI consultant is companies continue to do the work that you're doing to take care of your people and understand that your people right now are not okay.

Cristina Penin: Right. Your Latino employees and Latina employees [00:31:00] are not okay. Your queer employees are not, okay. Your trans employees are not okay. And then the coach in me says, don't get burnt out. We will. Folks have fought through harder conditions for longer periods of time and got us where we are now. We can do this in community, we can do this.

Cristina Penin: So those are like my two kind of hats and my perspective of it. It's still. The work is still necessary. We can't lose hope and we can't give up even though it feels like we don't see that light at the end of the tunnel. So you are choosing your battles. I'm just summarizing. Yeah, I mean, I'm choosing to battle, I'm choosing to, to not give up in spite of everyone saying it's, it's a done deal.

Cristina Penin: We should give up. 

Sara Ferrer: Well that's how do you stay grounded in that, right? Because like I love that like the fight you're in it. How do you stay grounded? Because like I, I think a lot of the listeners are like, yes, we wanna advocate yes, but then how do you balance [00:32:00] self care, realizing that shit's gonna happen, but also practice has been made.

Sara Ferrer: I think sometimes we often say like, oh, this is the horrible, and I always say, look back in history, 50 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, women couldn't have a credit card. You know, so I, I mean, it's all gay people couldn't walk down the street and be openly gay without, it's all relatives. I mean, maybe this is the worst in your lifetime, but certainly methods to not ever.

Sara Ferrer: Um, but how do you stay grounded? Because I find, you know, as someone who is a pretty sensitive person, I, I don't watch. I'm very impacted these days by images and all this, and I know Serena and I have chatted about this offline. Um, and many people can really, how do we stay informed? How do we fight the good fight?

Sara Ferrer: Without feeling that soul crushing feeling of like, this is totally fucked, and we're all going straight to nothing. Like that feeling of like, now I'm [00:33:00] just gonna pull the blanket over my head. But how do you balance that? Tell us that. Like how do you fight the good fight but balance the reality of we're you're up against something very difficult 

Sara Ferrer: and challenging?

Cristina Penin: Yeah. Whenever I feel kind of drained, I. I do two things depending on what I feel that my body and my spirit need in that moment, and usually nine times out of 10 where it needs us to be in community. And as soon as you take some sort of action or you connect with someone who you know is gonna feel that same kind of feeling, you feel that hope because you realize you're not alone.

Cristina Penin: You're not the only one experiencing this, you're not the only one reading this and being like, what the fuck is going on? Why is this happening? How is this happening? Right? Like other people have that same. Idea and thoughts and it's not about like, Hey, let's doom together. No, it's, then it's like, okay, maybe we'll find like a protest to go to.

Cristina Penin: It sounds so silly like to think about that, but it really makes it, it's the power of being with other people who feel and think the same way. [00:34:00] Taking some sort of action is it, it really helps move my spirit forward and not get so like down on it. 

Serena Reynolds: So as business owners and. Women as a collective, what can we do to help, help this cause to, to stand up for the, the ones that aren't being heard at the moment.

Serena Reynolds: What is it that we, we could, we can contribute? 

Cristina Penin: Yeah. 

Cristina Penin: Great 

Cristina Penin: question. Because there is always something, and I think like whether that is visibility, you know, talking about the issues using the platform that you have. To share information, to share resources, to share the stance, to make it known as like, Hey, this is a safe space for trans folks.

Cristina Penin: Hey, this is a safe space for migrants, et cetera, right? Like making sure that you're using that, that space and making it known. The inclusivity, inclusivity that [00:35:00] folks can experience working with. Experience your organization or your company or with you as a, as a coach, a service provider. The other thing is spend your money.

Cristina Penin: Like donate to the causes that you care about. Use that as part of your, you know, when you're looking at your budget, have a line item for that. Um, and if that's not the case, if you don't have the to donate, then try to find a provider that is using their platform the way that you would like to see, right?

Cristina Penin: That it's that you're going with an ethical provider or your different services or products, what have you. I think there's definitely ways that we can be ethical business owners. There's also a part of me that is very progressive and very anti-capitalist, but at the same time a business owner and looking to make money also.

Cristina Penin: So it's something that is very difficult to grapple with. But I've come to terms with the fact that there is an ethical way to do it, and I've said no to clients that don't ethically [00:36:00] match up to my standards. Um, or they would just not little bit matched. And I think that that's something that we can all do.

Cristina Penin: There's always something to be done. 

Serena Reynolds: So, um, as marketing, I spend quite a lot of time looking at company brands, their values, their ethos, and stuff like that. And like you, I do turn away clients if, uh, if their values do not match mine or, or opposing mine, I would say not. It's not that they don't match as if they.

Serena Reynolds: If it clashes, then I, I can't work with them. So I, I think that's also something that people can do is act values and their ethos to be inclusive, to, to not allow that culture to fester inside their organizations and, and building that into the core messaging of, of who you are. And I think the more of us that do that, the more of us that make noise.

Serena Reynolds: That space in any space. [00:37:00] I, I think it's going to be, uh, groundbreaking for everybody long term. And, um, you know, we can rise up against the other noise that's happening that is so much louder than, than our small businesses. That's my take. 

Sara Ferrer: Absolutely. 100%. But that is, that is really, I, I appreciate kind of like, you know, we're always looking for like the big, what can we do?

Sara Ferrer: And your answer was just like. Community, like find people, get out of the house, meet up for a drink or coffee. Not everything has to always be so focused. Doing a podcast, doing a podcast, right. But like, but it also doesn't have to be, and I think this is a reminder for people that like. You can be someone who believes strongly in certain things, but also it's kind of nice just to be around people who believe it in their heart, but you don't always have to be talking about it.

Sara Ferrer: 'cause I find the talking about it to sometimes be exhausting, like to always have to be informed about what's going on versus, I'm around a group of people I like, know and trust. I [00:38:00] can be myself. I can talk about going out to branch. I, you know, I can incorporate other, I think a lot of people are in that boat where they wanna stand for what they stand for, but they also just wanna like.

Sara Ferrer: Have their days where they can just chat and have fun and feel, feel like the community around them. Is welcoming. So I love that. Get out there. And again, it could be for something like a protest, but maybe just find your community. Maybe it's a theater group, maybe it's a, I don't know, whatever it looks like where people are like-minded.

Sara Ferrer: And I think that's the reminder. It doesn't have to be everything. Doesn't have to be, well, I'm doing this because of, you know, it can just be, they make me feel good and I feel safe. And that's good enough to, I think, boost our energy and boost our, I can make it through another week. Right. That's just a reminder, get out.

Sara Ferrer: And sometimes just getting in the sun with a good friend and a cup of coffee can be that, at least for me. 

Cristina Penin: Yeah. Sara, what you said is like, safety is number one. It's not just like a nice to have, it's a need to have, [00:39:00] especially when everything feels so unsafe in the world right now, everything feels so up in the air.

Cristina Penin: So when you connect with your community, that does help you feel safe, that's key. You can't continue to do this work that we all wanna do, and we can all do. You don't have to have a title as a DEI person. You don't have to have a big title to do. We can all make an impact in our communities, but you need to be okay first, you know, the whole, you can't fill up another cups, another cup when yours is empty, right?

Cristina Penin: You have to make sure yours is also full. 

Serena Reynolds: So I, I've got a question for both of you here and it's, it's slightly related and maybe slightly not, but let's ask it anyway. So, um, in the UK we're seeing a lot of press. About tourism in Spain, about how it's very much frowned upon and stuff like that. Now both of you live in Spain.

Serena Reynolds: Um, you both have Spanish family, but you are both [00:40:00] also American. How, how's that, how's that feeling for you there? You know, you're not quite. You are not quite exactly that. I'm guessing that you're not exactly what they're expecting you to be. And maybe you are, you are the outlier there. I'm just asking.

Cristina Penin: Sara, do you wanna take it first? 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah, I mean, I'll, I, I'm gonna have a very boring answer. Um, I. I, I, I find besides natural, normal challenges of perhaps communication or certain, um, I feel Spanish people incredibly friendly, and I don't think it's just a me thing. It's also to my husband who looks different from me, who sounds different from me.

Sara Ferrer: I have found in Madrid, incredibly welcoming, incredibly friendly, incredibly elated that you're even trying to pronounce a word. So if you're not fluent, there's no, you know, they say there's a stereotype of the French who kind of go, oh my God, she's destroying the, the, the language. Um, I have found it to be very warm, very welcoming.

Sara Ferrer: And again, I I, I, I also wanna say this too, because I do think that [00:41:00] this is very important. Um, I wanna make sure to phrase this correctly. I put myself in spaces where I, I show up as my best self. I show up with a smile. I show up welcome, warm, wanting to understand, wanting to learn, putting myself out there, laughing a lot at the mistakes I make.

Sara Ferrer: So I also own that role in, um, I don't expect you to love me because I already love you and I, I'm here wanting to be part of you and wanting to learn and grow versus walking in and saying. You don't have what I like and what my country makes. So with that mentality, I have found absolutely 0.0 resistance, 0.0 negativity.

Sara Ferrer: Um, but again, that's me. So I'd be curious with Cristina, with your experience if it's been different. 

Cristina Penin: Yeah. Well, I think there's, there's two, two things there. Like as immigrants, the, the treatment that immigrants receive versus what's currently in the press of the [00:42:00] tourism. I think that's why, for me, I'm not really experiencing any of that because I'm not viewed as a tourist.

Cristina Penin: Right. I'm viewed as an immigrant. I have my own apartment. I, I am part of the, I pay my community fees. You know, like I, but as an immigrant, I think the experience has been very interesting. And for sure I have an immigrant experience of privilege, 100%. Right? I, I am bilingual. I, uh, look. Like folks expect a Spaniard to look.

Cristina Penin: They might think that I'm from Manal, Lucia. They might think that I'm from Ben Felipe based on my accent. Um, but it's not the same experience that other immigrants that other migrants have here in Spain, unfortunately. And so that there's a different take on that. As for the tourism protests, I can't say I disagree with them.

Cristina Penin: But I know that the protests are for the government. Really. It's not against the people, it's against the government and the laws on Airbnb and short rental housing and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Such a big topic, but it's also like. [00:43:00] I don't, I don't know what says more Barcelona than water guns as a protest.

Cristina Penin: I don't know. It just feels fun. It feels like not so bad, but I totally understand that for tourists it might feel a little well 

Serena Reynolds: as, as a Brit, I can honestly say I've seen British Mon Holiday and they are atrocious. And I'm not a fan of them. 

Sara Ferrer: Well, I, I wanna say this too. I think like many people don't realize Spanish has a huge housing crisis.

Sara Ferrer: So it's not that we don't like tourists, it's not that like just by nature we don't, it's. If people can understand this, Spain is really in a bad housing crisis. People really wanna educate themselves, so the issue is people buying up Airbnb properties for tourists. The tourists aren't necessarily the problem, but you have people who are living at home in their late thirties, forties.

Sara Ferrer: The birth rate is lower now. This is affecting. The society. So this is more than just, we don't like you and your hamburger. This is like we 

Serena Reynolds: To be fair, 

Serena Reynolds: it's, [00:44:00] it's 

Serena Reynolds: a very British thing to have a second home in Spain

Cristina Penin: and that's a, a problem. 

Serena Reynolds: I am sure it is. But your, it's so cheap there compared to here. 

Sara Ferrer (2): Well, that's why tourists come here.

Sara Ferrer (2): That's kind of the, 

Sara Ferrer (2): you 

Sara Ferrer (2): get 

Sara Ferrer (2): people going, I'll stay for a month!.

Cristina Penin: It's accessible for folks outside of Spain, but for the salary here in Spain, it's not accessible, and then folks buying it and having short term rentals, then it makes us who are trying to buy or to live here not have access. 

Serena Reynolds: This is a whole big topic, isn't it? Anyway, I just wanna, I just wanted to go there because our papers are full of it, and I get it.

Serena Reynolds: Brits are horrible on what holiday? Not all of us. There is definitely a, a section of British tourism that the world could do without. 

Sara Ferrer: Um, Christie, as we, as we wrap up, we like to, like to kind of have this moment. [00:45:00] Not that, not that this has been scripted, but a moment of spontaneity where we, um, do this thing on the show where we ask every single guest a question and the question from the last guest.

Sara Ferrer: We're gonna present to you. She didn't know who you were, what you worked in, what you did. Um, and so we're gonna present that question to you, which it might align with your life, your work, your experience. It might be so far to the right that you're like, I need a minute to think about this. You have a great question, Bonnie.

Sara Ferrer: You do have a great question. 'cause I believe this was from, from Iona, uh, right from Iona, who she, um, had asked the question if reincarnation was real. You couldn't come back as a human, what would you choose to be? 

Cristina Penin: If I could specify like the time and everything, like I would wanna come back as my current dog.

Cristina Penin: Yeah. Either your ownership [00:46:00] or my wife's. Yeah, 

Sara Ferrer: I love that. But you would want you or your wife to be the, the dog owner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What a great, what a great answer. 

Cristina Penin: Yeah. All he does is like sleep. Get belly rubs, get good food. Lindsay, my wife cooks him chicken every day. I mean, 

Sara Ferrer (2): stop it. 

Cristina Penin: He's so spoiled.

Cristina Penin: So that's just, I'm meant to live that kind of life, you know? 

Sara Ferrer: I love that. Okay. I, I gotta say I was expecting maybe a dog, people say, but a dog. Your current dog, so that you, my current dog. It's very matrixy that question. 'cause then like in that life you are still around you and your wife because you, I'm loving that.

Sara Ferrer: You just checked out. 

Cristina Penin: Well, ideally, I like wouldn't know that it was me in that other plane. Right. Because then I feel like I would have a lot of, Jo, I'm an only child. I would just like. But I get my needs met because he gets more attention from my wife than I do. Right. And then vice versa, [00:47:00] like he does get more attention from me than my wife does.

Cristina Penin: And so I think it would totally work for me as an only child, as a Taurus, as all of the things. 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. And what would you, uh, what would you ask the next guest? 

Cristina Penin: A question I always ask some folks is, if you could invite anyone to dinner. That is in history, cannot be a member of your family. I always add that caveat.

Cristina Penin: You can't be like, I wanna meet my great-great grand. Yes, of course you wanna meet your great-great grandfather. No. Someone from history, it could be dead or alive. They could actually still be alive right now. Who would you invite and what would you ask them? 

Sara Ferrer: Who would you meet? Dead or alive? Not a member of your family.

Sara Ferrer: Well, who, well, Cristina, answer that question for me because I feel like you said that you, you ask that question a lot, 

Cristina Penin: so usually that you have an answer, you have an answer. I have so many. I have like different dinner parties with different people depending on my mood. 

Sara Ferrer: Well telling you today. 

Sara Ferrer: If I asked you that 

Sara Ferrer: question, what would you say?[00:48:00] 

Cristina Penin: Right now? I would ask for two people, three people maybe. Michelle Obama, Gloria Steinem, Gretta, Thunberg. I think all three people who have like fought through, been super resilient, have seen hope in times where hope was not very obvious. And so I, I would invite all those three people and just ask them for tips on how do we keep going when it feels like, like, and they've pushed battles are continuing to push battles that are not yet won.

Cristina Penin: Um, and so how do you keep, keep doing it? 

Sara Ferrer: Can I just tell you who popped into my head, and again, this is maybe not the most polished answer, but this is more fearless. I am so freaking upset. I never got to see Freddie Mercury perform live. I am so f embarrassed that, you know, esp like, like, so that's the first thing.

Sara Ferrer: I was like, Freddy. Freddy would come, he'd come and he'd come in his 

Sara Ferrer: robe and [00:49:00] we'd be smoking cigarettes and we'd be drinking wine out of goblets and there'd be velvet curtains. And I feel like Serena was, I knew she was gonna die. When I say that. 

Cristina Penin: Yeah, that would be excellent. That is another party. You, who do you invite there?

Sara Ferrer: That's not the, yeah, that's a, that is vastly different from your party, which both have their great merit, but mine is the after after party, but yeah, 

Cristina Penin: and Prince has to be there as well. 

Sara Ferrer: Oh. Oh yeah, of course. But you know, he'd be there, he'd be kind of judging everyone. That's what I loved about Prince. He was always a little G cat, you know?

Sara Ferrer: Always like the more I learned about him, the more I'm like, oh, you were the greatest and you were also a little judgy side eye little, you know? I love that even more when you hear about like kind of his, like, you know, he healthy competition, I don't know, but competitive and I like that about you. Where do people find you?

Sara Ferrer: They're, they're trying to get in contact. How do they find you for your services? 

Cristina Penin: Great. So the first thing I would say is thank you for your self-awareness and I appreciate you [00:50:00] reaching out and knowing where there's gaps. Now always LinkedIn is the best way to get in touch with me and also get to like, know me a little bit more.

Cristina Penin: See I, I posted a lot. You could see a bit like my thoughts and the way that I work and what I prioritize. So LinkedIn is great. You can also email me at contact@Cristinapenin.com. Um, and my LinkedIn is Cristina Penin, so pretty easy to find as well. Um, but that is always the best. The best way, way.

Sara Ferrer: Wonderful. And we'll have all your information as always on our website. Um, you know, we encourage our listeners and we have a very active listening set globally, really the uk, Spain, but we encourage people to check out. Cristina, this has been, you know, I have to tell you, I think this conversation for me, obviously there's some heaviness naturally around what's going on in the government and all that, but I, I found this conversation really enlightening and also.

Sara Ferrer: I, I feel lighter after the conversation. There's a little bit of, like, when you talk about it and you release it, I, you know, you can't solve all the world's problems, [00:51:00] but to know a little bit more about, hey, intent versus actual, you know, end result are different. So thank you. I think that that was really, you know, informative without feeling judgy, and that's the most important thing to move forward is you take things away.

Sara Ferrer: Wonderful. Well, thank you for, 

Cristina Penin: well, thank you. Because we were in community and ideally when we are in community, we do feel that lightness. 

Sara Ferrer: Yes, that's great. 100%. We will certainly be in touch. We always say that we hope to do little check-ins in the future, so who knows In the future, if there's major government shifts, we would love to be back in touch and say, Hey, what now?

Sara Ferrer: How has this affected you? Since you are so directly related to a lot of what's going on right now politically? So we will certainly be in touch. But thank you so much for your time. 

Cristina Penin: Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.