Hi, I’m Serena Reynolds from Conceptiv.

And I am Sara Ferrer, from saraferrerco.com and this is our annual Gin and Jammies. Now you might be thinking what the hell is gin and jammies? Now you might be thinking what the hell is gin and jammies? Serena, tell the listeners what this gin and jammies tradition is that we’ve been doing for what, three, four years now? Yeah, about that.

Okay, so I’m English and so a big fan of gin.

If you’re watching this, she’s showing little bottles of gin that always has.

I have a bottle of pink gin here. I need to decide this is my big question today is which one am I going to have? I have Jordan’s pink gin here. Very pretty cute. I have rhubarb and ginger lure.

Yeah, that’s. Do you have any. Any of the violet any of like you? A side note. I’ve never drank flavored gin until I met Serena and now I am out here like who’s got the rhubarb gin? Who’s got the pink gin? Who’s got the violet gin? Who’s got the obscure?

Yes, I bought you palm violet gin, didn’t I over from you?

You sure did. And now it’s an obsession.

I went you see I have beef eater peach and raspberry. Oh, I think I’ll send that to you Sarah. Peach.

Oh yeah, I know I don’t like peach.

I don’t like peach. And brighten.

First of all very.

It’s one of these. It’s one of these least one of.

These very, very Serena esque to have four flavor options. When we planned this we just said let’s show up. Let’s have a gin drink. I have a pre made gin and tonic with, with bittersweet Seville orange. It’s a pre made one of those in a can and you’re just out here with.

Okay, I have just bottles in orange tonic. Oh beautiful. So I think that must go with the dry. Please do with the dry. So then I just realized I don’t have bottle echna.

I would say use your teeth but after having braces twice my pearly whites are far too expensive to. To my mouth to a bottle. Yes. Oh well you try your hardest to open but explain where the jammies came from while you’re doing your your witchcraft over there trying to where come from because we are in pajamas. Just to let the listener know we are both in pajamas. Serena has on the cutest little like Gray chic, like, tank top with, like, little sweater set. I have on my nice polyester green pajamas.

Silky, silky, sexy little number.

Silky little, 98% polyester. The other 2%. I don’t want to know what it is. It’s one of those, you know, don’t tell me what it is. It just feels silky. Where did we come up with the jammies? I think it was about five years ago, four years ago, didn’t it? What was that?

It just went with Gin.

Well, I think were trying to do is when were still working. If I remember correctly, it was Covid, and were doing an end of the year. An end of the year celebration. Yes, End of the year celebration for Zoe Coco. And you were in London, I was in Boston, and we had some other teammates who were in the Boston area, but it was Covid. And so we couldn’t get together for a drink. And you were. You. You know, were international. So I believe I sent out everybody a gin sampler with some different, you know, flavors and tonics, and we decided maybe it just sounded good. Let’s drink gin for two hours in our pajamas, because who wants to show up to, like, a quote unquote work event, you know, with makeup? We were just like, listen, ladies, we’re in the. It was so good.

And I think it was fancy Christmas meals. There was no. No, no big holiday thing. We were all in isolation. So we.

Yep.

We ordered gin from Amazon. Yep.

We sure did.

And we did a gin tasting night in our.

We did. And were in our pajamas. But don’t you think now I’m gonna. I’m gonna have a full circle moment, Serena. Here we are, you know, four to five years later, we’ve started this podcast, right? The fearless and flawed podcast. We’re doing it. We’re empowering other women. We’re talking to other women in charge. But I’d like to think maybe the connection here. I’m trying too hard. But I’d like to think that four or five years ago, when we started Gin and Jammies, part of the ethos, if you will, of the Gin and Jammies party was, listen, we’re a bunch of hardworking women on this team. We all have our roles and our responsibilities.

You know, come as you are to this event, because at the end of the day, the way we showed up always for Joey Coco is we respected everyone’s kind of job. What they did. We really were good with fostering the different perspectives, and experiences from. From yourself, from myself, from Abby, who was a junior designer at the time, to Brianna and Sue, who work in the office shipping and managing all the orders. I’d like to think that was kind of a lovely. Though it was technically a quote unquote work event, if you will. I think were really breaking. What a work event was the stuffy holiday party where you don’t really want to talk to the boss because the boss is like three sheets to the wind and he’s making inappropriate comments to the interns. But you have to play it cool.

Like, were just like, fuck it. Like, let’s show up, let’s have fun and, and just bring yourself and listen. After two hours, some people dropped on the call and said, listen, guys, I’ve got to eat. I love you all. See you later. And the rest of us, we just kept on drinking and gabbing. So I’d like to think it was a little bit of a safe space to be ourselves, to reminisce, to connect. And that has kind of inspired what we’re doing right now, which is Jin and Jammies reminiscing on how fearless and.

Flawed has been thus far and talking of what fearless and flawed will become.

Absolutely. So, so let’s just dive into it. Tell me, like, you were the one who, many people don’t realize this. You were the one who thought of this idea to do a podcast. You had thought of this idea and you had presented this to me during the summer, early summer, like, hey, let’s do this podcast. I jumped on immediately.

We were talking, as we often did, about female empowerment. It’s a bit of a cliche word that I know phrase, but were talking about what were going to do next. So ecoco was still in our lives, but slightly more background wasn’t our primary focus. We were talking about, not to disrespect men in any way, but were talking about some experiences we’d suffered in an invite in work environments before with, with a very few male people. And were talking about females and the, the difficulties we have with certain aspects of life and work and balance and stuff like that. And were talking about our futures and where were going. And, and I think it was you were talking and I was like, all right, we need to have a really, we need to have a chat. I’ve.

I’ve got an idea and we need to have a chat. And. Yeah. And that was where I said, you know, why don’t we start podcasts, why don’t we start inviting real women on and having conversations? This fits in with, you know, not a plug. This in with where I was trying to drive my business at the time, which was trying to productize my marketing and creative services. And podcasting was one of the ones that I’ve had huge success with other clients and their ambitions and what they wanted to do. So I was looking at that point at. At packaging my podcasting services. And I’d done a lot of research at that stage, and I’m not. I’ve said this a thousand times and I’m feeling as though I’m getting better at it.

But the idea of ever being in front of a camera was something that was absolutely horrendous to me. It was. I was keep saying, I’m not a front person. I never wanted to be a front person. You know, my children have done theater and I always wanted to behind the scenes. I never wanted to go on stage. I never wanted to be up front. Public speaking scares me terribly. And I was. And Sarah, who is full of energy, full of life, so many wonderful qualities and empowering. And Zoe Coco, all her. The ethos behind Zoe Coco and everything was really so uplifting. I was like, we should start a podcast. Let’s do it together. Let’s take our conversations and put them online. And that was.

That was about six months ago. So you proposed the idea about six months ago and here we are. And I will say that we very much connected, which has been proof to me that when you deeply connect over something, it will find its way to you like we had. Deeply connected over. We want to. We don’t know what it looks like, but we want to connect to other female women in charge, other female entrepreneurs, other women in charge, right? And we want to. We want the authentic story, right? We want the. This is not a negative podcast about just failure and trudging through and despair. This is a comprehensive story that, you know, tell us what you did, tell us about your two steps forward, one step back experience, because that’s life. So we all go through it.

And what I have found is that in challenging maybe our own fears, right, you’re coming more to front, you know, the front of the house. Maybe I am challenged in that. You know, I love the gift of. I love talking, right. I love meeting people. But. But the vulnerability has been challenging, right? It’s been challenging in that, you know, we want to hear authentic stories, but in order to hear authentic stories and vulnerability, we Also have to be willing to also say, yeah, while everyone else thought maybe in my career that was a highlight, that was actually a low life in my marriage or that was really a low life at home because the stress of work was too grand or vice versa. Right. Things were going really great, but I just couldn’t get that business product or idea off the ground.

So I think that we have, and I think I know that we’ve really attracted other women who have been on this show who get it, they have been able to talk about at least, you know, my takeaway has been facing fear has been a really healthy, positive thing that I think more women want to talk about. Facing the fear, the vulnerability, the bad moments, the sucky moments. But it’s, but again, we’re only human. And if we’re not in an environment where we are fostering that and encouraging that, then people clam up, right? Like, we all want to show our true selves. We’re all little kids deep down inside and we want to show it, share and tell our, you know, what we discovered.

But the minute you see someone laugh in the back row or the minute you suspect it’s not cool enough, you kind of clam up. And so I think what we’ve really done is we’ve given a platform for people just to be, for women to just tell their stories. And the response has been what dozens of women emailing us, wanting to be on the show.

Phenomenal results that we’ve had responses from all kinds of women in all kinds of situations. It’s been really eye opening and it’s been really refreshing. And the comments that we’ve had from people that have been listening is, you know, it’s inspiring. You know, really enjoyed X episode that really lifted my thoughts on humanity. You know, I really had. We’ve had such wonderful responses from doing this that it’s. Well, it’s boosted my confidence in doing it, to be perfectly honest with you.

Well, I want to ask you that. What, what’s been your takeaway? What’s been your one major takeaway? If you could synthesize it all down into what are you taking away after doing this now for about. Realistically, we’ve been on the ball for about three months now, four months. What is something that you’ve said, wow, this has really been shocking to me or this has been a major takeaway that I didn’t expect was actually the.

Response from the responses from the women that we’ve had when they’ve come forward and They’ve asked to be on the podcast and we’ve spoken to them. We speak to them offline before we do the podcast. So we get to know them a little bit first and then we have them on the podcast and how authentic and real these women are. It’s absolutely phenomenal. I mean, they really do tell us some of their darkest moments and that, to me, it’s. It’s kind of. Would it be weird to say it was therapeutic?

No, not at all. I don’t think that’s weird.

It’s one of those. Those moments where you’re like, I feel really blessed that I’m doing this without sounding horny and cheesy. I’m English, so, you know, don’t go down that road.

They don’t. That’s true.

I can confirm stiff upper lip and all the rest of it. We know we don’t do too fluffy. But yeah, I mean, some of these stories have been absolutely phenomenal. I mean, I look at LinkedIn, I look at social media all the time. We often refer back to it and, you know, we’re constantly bombarded with how perfect everybody’s lives are. And it’s really nice to actually speak to real women who are struggling as well as succeeding. It’s not just about struggle. It’s. It’s absolutely not. It’s about their success through the struggles. The reality of it that I find inspiring. And it’s really nice to know that I’m not on my own when I have a bad day or. And that there’s. There’s, you know, all over the world that women are going through this and we’ve gone international. We’re international with.

We’re three months in and. Okay, we’re only on two continents. We need to expand that, but it counts as international.

Okay. Like that. That’s where you puff out your chest and go internationally.

Yeah, we’re definitely.

Y’all, y’all. But that’s. That’s so true, though, that, like, I think we have, you know, when I think back too, to this whole experience, I find it very interesting that we have. We have talked to women. Some women who have come to the U.S. You know, at not knowing English. Other women who have gone through horrible life changes, devastating divorces, have lost it all.

Some women. Nothing.

Nothing. Right, right. And what I. My takeaway was that sometimes, and I don’t know if you’ve picked up on this, women will sometimes our guests, when we do our pre chat, and that’s a 20 minute quick, tell us who you are so that when we record, you know, we can converse as if we already know you versus, like an interview. And I votes found it interesting that we will hear the most fascinating stories of resilience, of. Of conquering the obstacles, of lows and highs and. And what I feel like our role has always been and what we’ve done really well is not just a mirror. I’m a mirror for what I. For what I see and hear. So I will say back, you know, it’s. It’s a classic, like, therapy technique, right? Like, if I heard you correctly, this is what you sell. Right?

And so if you think about it’s just really just mirroring what the person has said. And I’ve. I’m always fascinated when I just say back what I heard. The amount of women who will go, oh, God, well, when you say it like that’s really impressive. And it’s like. But that’s. That’s actually what you just said. I’m not. Maybe I’m saying it enthusiastically, sure. My tone is I’m in awe, but I’m not making up an accomplishment. I’m not making up an experience. And I always find that interesting and a little bit sad, to be quite frank with you. The surprise that women have at their accomplishments and their ability when. When we say it back to them, and it makes, you know, surprise, because like I said, I’m just telling you what you already have told me. But slide in that.

What does that mean for. For. For what we need to hear? What are we not hearing? What is that voice inside of us telling us?

Where did it come from?

Exactly?

But where did we. At what point did we, like, not believe in ourselves as much or not believe in ourselves? I’m not sure. There’s something that kind of knocks the women a little bit.

It’s the inability to. And I find this, in my experience, much more common with women than men. Maybe, you know, they say women have more imposter syndrome or suffer from imposter syndrome more. And that could be for a variety of reasons. Right. You know, seeing what the CEO typically looks like or someone in charge typically looks like, might not be a female, though things are certainly changing. But I also wonder if it’s, you know, but I find that women tend to bring a lot of emotion to the forefront. And I know emotion can be, like a negative word, right? You’re too emotional. There’s no place for emotion at work. But I would almost argue that emotion, especially, you know, the photographers we’ve talked to about connection bringing out the best sense of their subject is because there’s an emotional connection there. The, The. The.

The chiropractor who, you know, what she. What she derives from her clients are so much more than what aches. It’s usually past trauma that they’re carrying, right? Even if it’s. Even if it’s the pr. The PR manager, you know, the. The PR owner, the. The PR agency owner, who in order to fully tell someone’s story, they have to connect to the emotion behind it. And so I find that. That dirty little word, emotion, sometimes we internalize as women, and I’m surmising, maybe from my own experience, that’s a bad thing. Oh, I’m too emotional. I’m too this, I’m too that. But then when it’s kind of spoken back to you as, wait, wait. That ability to feel is actually a superpower. That ability to be able to reflect, to acknowledge that there have been some lows.

You see, I’ve dealt with a lot of men who. They’ll never talk about the lows. So all you hear is the highs. And so you almost start to think, is something freaking wrong with me? Because I’m. I’m. I’m over here reflecting on the lows and the highs. Oh, maybe I’m a flawed individual because everyone else here is just going from zero to a million overnight, but I’m telling you how my first gig failed. So that’s been my takeaway, is that, you know, it’s that emotional component. It’s how we view success, what success looks like for women, what success means for us. I think we have found that in all of the women we’ve interviewed thus far, success also looks like community. We have yet to interview someone who says, you know what?

I’ve made a lot of money, and I sit at home alone all day, and I just watch YouTube. And that’s happiness. It’s. I find that a lot of it is connection. Helping others, being of service and making some money on the side is what.

I would love for Zoe Coco to become a Zoe Coco. Fearless and flawed. So past life, fearless and flawed. To become more of a community thing, a place where women will hear other women and hire their services because they have that connection. Through our podcast, wouldn’t that just be just a phenomenal platform to. To believe?

It would be. It would be. And here’s the thing, too, like, we’re not. I think the reason that this is really resonating with women, too, is, like, you mentioned being British, you know, stiff Upper lip. Right. And that’s why I think we’re great yin and yang. You know, I, I like the touchy feely, overly fluffy things, but sometimes too, I gotta check myself, like, Sarah, cool it. Okay? Cool it. Don’t become Drew Barrymore, who’s overly touchy and feely. It gets weird. But, but I do think there’s something to say about. We are combining the business story with the emotional atmosphere of like, this is safe. And I think that when those two things collide, the business brain is actually able to perform better. Is. You know, so many people said this. God, this has been so inspiring.

Guests have said, like, you know, I’ve thought of these new ideas or like that one business thing I was thinking about now that I’ve kind of talked through it and talked through it in a way where it’s not just smoking, blowing smoke up your butt here, but we’re just trying to like, really have you verbalize it. I think what this has done is allowed people to tell their business story in a forum that typically the other, at least a lot of the other podcasts I’ve listened to, it gets a little too woo for me. Like, I don’t want to dive too much in the touchy feely side. Right. Like, I don’t want to meditating. So this has kind of been a nice merge of the two. And I credit you with really always.

I always have to remind myself, like, Serena’s got the stiff upper lips, Sarah. So when I try to go a little too touchy feely, fluffy, you call me out on it. Sometimes you’re like, girl, I’m British cooling, cool.

Absolutely right.

But that’s kind of been the yin and yang of it. And like in our last three or four months, I wonder, Serena, is there something you’re grateful for? We’re recording this a couple days after Thanksgiving. Is there something you’re. You’re grateful for doing this that you can reflect on and say, wow, like, I knew I was going to, you know, hang out with Sarah. I knew I was going to hang out with you that I’m always grateful for. But is there something deeper that you’ve gotten out of this, gratitude wise?

Oh, totally. Absolutely. It’s been every time we finish a podcast, I walk away inspired, I walk away energized. And I didn’t expect that. I thought I would be terrified. I thought, I’m never going to be able to speak, I’m never going to be able to do this. But I find my voice I do. I find it. But really I do. I walk away and I just, I’m so grateful that I started this and it with you. There are times where I would have not done it. I have a photo of my cat on my, my episode because when it came down to doing the design, the artwork and everything else like that, it was just a step too far to put my photo on it. Just couldn’t do it.

And if that was a make or break moment, I either put my cat on there or I didn’t do it.

For everyone who’s wondering about where this cat is, on fearlessandflawed.com we have little bios of everyone that we interview and we ask for like a headshot. And if you go on fearlessandflawed.com under Serena Reynolds and you hear her fabulous story, you will see that her headshot is of a white cats. Serena is in fact not a cat in real life. But, but I love what you’re saying is that, that putting your a picture of yourself felt like, and this is honest. It felt like just too much. Like it was too much.

It was too much for me. Yeah. Too much of me being out there. And I’m not a forward, I’m not a front person. I wanted to climb back in my shell and not face this. It’s strange. It’s a vulnerability. I don’t know what you call it, but it was just easier for me to sell other people. It’s easier for me to do things for others than it is for myself. And I think a lot of women suffer from that. Suffer from the. We’re courage, we’re givers, we’re whatever, we’re mothers, we’re, you know, we’re some, we’re everything to somebody, most of us, or at least some points in our lives. So, so we’re always giving to other people. And it’s really hard to, to sometimes put yourself forward. And so this is really. I’ve really faced my fears on this one.

Really, really have faced my fears on this one.

You have. And, and let me just point out, I don’t think it’s strange at all. I think that’s the narrative that we tell her, oh, this is, I think that it’s so relatable, overexposed too much there. It challenges the, you know, a lot of us, even as empowered as we can be, there’s always a little bit, you know, I’m very much an extrovert, but there’s Even so many times, I think, oh, my, is it too much now? Am I too out there? And then you kind of. You go down that rabbit hole. Right. That leads to a tap being your, you know, your picture. So. So I don’t think it’s that strange. I think it’s actually. If anything, it’s very honest.

The funny thing is, people that know me would not know me as an introvert, and I’m not.

That’s interesting. Yeah. Because I wouldn’t start that.

Talking, you know, giving more of myself than. Than I know how to or comfortable with. So, Sarah, I’m going to. I’m going to give you the question now. What about what have you?

Before we die, I just want to say I grew up with a father who was extremely verbally affirming, like, every single day when I woke up. Oh, Sarah, you’re the best. You’re a champion. All this. So I just want to say, when you’re telling me this, I am so proud of you, Serena. Like, you are freaking doing it. And I know again, stiff upper lip, British might be like, okay, Sarah, getting too fluffy now. So proud of you. You’re doing the dang thing. You are doing the damn thing. So just want to give your flowers.

Oh, I had. I had to. I kept telling people, oh, you know, you need to start podcasts. You need to. You need to put yourself out there. I am constantly putting people out there, and my whole, if you’re not out there, how. How’s anyone going to know that you even exist? How. How’s anyone going to come and find your business if you’re hiding? And there I was, hiding, wondering why nobody was coming to my business. But there you go. I wasn’t really wondering. I was just thinking I’m. I’m happier here.

Fair. That’s fair.

So come on, Sarah, your turn.

Okay. What would you like to know, my dear? What would you like to know? Let me.

Well, I’d like to know what you’re taking away from this podcast.

Well, what am I taking away from this? You know, for me? You know, reminder to people who may not be aware, I moved to Spain, to Madrid about six months ago. And, you know, to be very honest, you know, I think I am. I am. I sold my company, Zoe Coco. I moved abroad. I’m half Spanish. I’m living in Madrid. I’m living in. In the apartment my father grew up in. So all these things are very good, very happy, very fun to share. You know, I have a lot of hype People in my life that go, wow, you’re living the dream and doing it. But I, I will be very honest. I, I have struggled a lot with loneliness in the city because I, I don’t have my social circle and I know I’m a believer in good things take time.

So I’m doing it little by little. But what this podcast has really meant for me, which has really surprised me, is it’s been a pivotal community for me in this transitional point. You know, it for me has been a way where if I was in Boston, I would not be having virtual coffee with people. I would not probably be doing the virtual, you know, pre chats with people. I probably would be meeting them at a cafe and maybe we’d be, you know, pinging you for a zoom call. So it’s really challenged me to be open to, you know, there’s a bit of like, oh, virtual. There’s, there’s no connection virtually. It’s hard. I’d rather, you know, be sitting next to you with a warm cup of coffee, you know, reading, you know, your body language and vibing.

But this has actually replicated that for me. Nothing is lost in these. I get excited to do it. I get excited. I have met more female entrepreneurs in Boston in the last three months than I ever have living in Boston for like 15 years. I mean, really meeting them, not just a Facebook post, but hearing their stories. So I think what this has proven to me is that, you know, if you show up and make the effort, good things will come. However it may be. It doesn’t have to be perfect to be right. It doesn’t have to be the best sound system in the world in order to begin. Right.

We do everything over zoom. We have no special cameras. We have no microphones. I have got one on order though, you know, because. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Send it to me because I need a good one too.

Yeah.

Now that we’re growing, now that we’re.

Grown ups, so, you know, I mean, have to take this seriously. But this, this was, this was in many ways my proof of concept that the podcast is about conversation with real people. It’s not about having the best camera, the best sound effect. I’ve got a fake background because I work in a caravan at the end of my garden.

It’s a bit messy behind your back.

I’m not showing that on camera or on podcasts, which no one can see anyway, but it doesn’t matter. So, yeah, I’m Sorry.

But you were the, you were the one and that. See that’s really, it’s. I remember when we first started, you kept saying, because I’m a bit more of like. And listen, I’ve worked with you too. You’re. We like to have our ducks in a row. We’re always prepared. We are not like last minute type of people. So I, I found it very. There was a, A bit of skepticism, if you will. And I’m like, but, but like, but like, should we like do, like should we get the microphone? Should we do that? And you said, we just got to do it. We just got to do it. Okay, well, shall we. Like, how do we make it?

Thousand reasons not to do something. It’s not going to be perfect. It’s not going to be. I mean this is fearless and flawed. It’s not supposed to be perfect. People talk to. If we, if we had to wait for a studio that were all in the same city together with microphones, that was never going to happen. We would have missed this opportunity because we couldn’t set it up in the way that other podcasters set it up 100%. And the end of the day, it’s about the conversation. We de. Tweak it. Right. We inject a little bit of Botox and a little bit of filler.

Yeah. Yes, that’s it. Yes, yes. Editing wise. I just, I’m both, I’m actually Botox free. But I think you meant like you judge it up now because if you think we’re out here doing Botox. No, right, right. We, we boost it. We boost it, we boost it. But I, I think that’s, that’s the truth. I think my biggest takeaway is that one, you know, we all have these pre. Assumptions and these reasons not to do things. Okay, well, this is not going to be real connection. I have to be meeting people on the street and this has to be curated in a certain way so that.

Every pound studio with the microphones and the setup, we have to sit around the big table and.

Right, right. And how are we going to pitch this? And like in order to pitch it has to be. And the truth is we just did it. I did a Facebook post one time, got like 30, 40 people who were like, I want to be on this. Like sometimes the more you overthink. Actually, I’d argue most of the time the more you overthink it, the more it’s like they say on a test, usually your first guess was the right guess, but then you’ve overthought it, you’ve over engineered it. Now when you end up end, it’s actually not your voice anymore. Now you’ve, now you’ve altered your own voice because now you’ve chat GPT it to sound like someone else. And so this has been a really great lesson in the flawed part. Show up, do it.

I consistently feel good when I do this, but it did challenge the whole, like, yeah, like, oh, I don’t know, like it’s so. It was almost anticlimactic some days where I’d be like, wow, I feel so good. But then the minute that laptop clicks closed, I was aware that like I was alone in this city. Right. But I, but I, and I don’t say that to be sad. I say that as a reminder that life is all about balance. Right? Is that just like our stories of ups and downs? You take two steps forward. Okay, Take one step back. But when I close that laptop, instead of reflecting on, okay, well, you know, I gotta keep building the physical community here. I would often say to my husband or say to my mom, like, this is really cool. Like, this is. Yes, yep.

And, and it’s cool because I think, you know, now it challenges the now I’m meeting up with a group of ladies tomorrow for coffee in Madrid. Like, it encourages me to keep on keeping on in the other communities that I have as opposed to doing what we often can do, which is have doubt or have fear or, or just say maybe tomorrow. So this has been really good overall. And plus I get to hang out with Serena.

Let me tell you, I mean, you literally, you’d sold Zoe Coco, you were starting afresh. Pretty much.

Yes, yes.

You’ve moved to Spain. I mean, that’s huge life changes. Huge life changes.

But remember I told you so many times when we interview women, they don’t believe it until someone says it back to them. Like, this is a classic example, you just said that. And I went, it’s really huge.

So it’s no surprise. I do, you know, I mean, you’re saying that. I remember there was one Costa Rica, there’s a woman we interviewed in Costa Rica. And Sarah was like, oh my God, you’ve left America and you live in Costa Rica. And I’m like, sarah, we left America, you live in Spain, in Madrid. And she was like, oh, yeah, yeah. I kind of didn’t get it. But I saw the same. Okay, touchy feely. I saw the same reflection back in her eyes as with you. It was like, yeah, it sounds exciting, but you know, there’s challenges. You, you saw that reflected through her?

Yes, yes.

And when you were like going, oh, my God, that’s so exciting. That’s amazing. And all the rest of it, you. You could see, like she was almost like, oh, yeah, I believe it was Kathy.

What you mean? Yeah, she was like, yeah, you’re doing it too. Or like, she was kind of. Well, you know, she said too. She. I don’t remember. She was just like, yeah, I mean, kind of the way I reacted when someone says when you were like, oh, you’ve done it too. Like she needed to be reminded. Because I think we just tend to over index a lot on, like, the things that have been done. Right. We almost kind of put it in our little memory bank and go, yeah, that’s good, that’s good. Because we’re so aware of the challenges. And I’m not sure that we’re doing ourselves. I think to be aware is a beautiful thing, but I’m not sure if we’re doing ourselves any type of service by constantly being reminded more of the challenges.

And, you know, it’s kind of that impulse to always want more, more. Well, it could better. It could be optimized more. And I, I will tell you, I’ve had to really, especially living in a Spanish society where, you know, people here don’t necessarily want more. They want just enough to live a life where they are content. They want to work to live, not live to work. And that is very challenging to someone like me. Right. Who wants to bring my laptop to a cafe on a Saturday. And I stopped doing that because people look at you like, is this girl working on a Saturday? She’s out of her damn mind.

Bearing in mind, earlier today, both me and Sarah forgot to join this recording because were with work.

Exactly.

So it’s our own thing.

Yeah. But I guess, you know, you had mentioned earlier that it is very therapeutic for you. And I think that that sentiment I echo this has been more than just learning about business women. Now I get to, you know, listen, I love to connect people. I love to be able to say now, hey, I know this great photographer. Hey, I know this, you know, this great chiropractor.

Right?

We love that. But I also think, like, it has been very therapeutic to just be part of something bigger than my own little.

Bubble and to be Part of it. Not because we started it, not because it’s ours or anything else, but because we’re part of it. And that’s really nice.

Right. Where do you see this going, Serena? I mean, we’ve been doing this now it’s end of the year. Where do you see? Where do you see?

We’ve been doing it for six months. We’ve been recording now for three of them. We have got so many interviews in our little stash of. Of women. We have more calls booked for the next coming weeks. Yeah. And I’m really just enjoying the rides at the moment. I mean, I have, I’m thinking, how can we, how can we bring more women on board? How do we get more coverage? I’m thinking along those lines all the time. I’m thinking, how am I going to start opening up to my own network?

Yeah.

Still haven’t done that. Not going to lie a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. I’m kind of, I’m content at the moment with where it is. But, you know, we’re business women. We can’t be content with where we are today. We have to see if we’re going to go tomorrow. And I think the new year is going to be exciting for Fearless and flawed. I’m absolutely blown away with the response that we’ve had so far.

Yes.

Genuinely blown away by the response and wait to meet more women and feel as though they’re my friends at the end of the day. Sad, lonely little life I live in my caravan at the end of the garden.

Serena, I just had a wild idea. Manifest with. Will you just manifest big, Think big. Okay. Because I love that, that answer. Your answer was so Serena esque. And that’s what I love too. It was like, logical. It was structured, it was, you know, it was spirited. But there was a lot of, like, steps to it. And that’s beautiful. I’m over here, I’m over here. And when you’re talking, I’m like, wait, I’m not saying this is going to happen anytime soon, but imagine you and me, gin and Jammies, 2025, 2026. And there’s 50 other fearless and flawed women on the gin and jammies. And, and we host this event and it’s all of our former. And again, I’m not saying it has to make sense. Don’t work out the finances now. Manifest with me.

Everyone has their sampling, everyone’s in their jammies and we’re just reflecting and people are mentioning their reflections and Their wins. And some people are drinking too much, so we got to turn off their microphone because. Or in their camera because they’re going too hard. Other, you know, that’s okay. You know, hey, girl, you know, calm down on the sipping. There is always one or two people who just go too hard on the holiday party. But overall, we’re just vibing and connecting like I imagine, again, limitless budget like that. Somehow we take it one step further where we now connect all these women individually that we’ve interviewed to. To the bigger picture of fearless and flawed in some massive event.

Well, you see, you still mentioned an online event. I’m saying in person event.

Well, yes, that’s okay. You’re right. There’s no budget in this scenario.

There’s no budget. We’re. We’re in a very swanky hotel somewhere in Boston. Swanky.

Yes.

We’ll go there.

We’ll go there. There’s balloons everywhere.

There’s little meeting people shaking hands, hugging.

Hugging, hugging, cheersing with our little gin drinks or mocktails, whatever people prefer. Like, we’re there, we’re vibing. You know, it’s like there’s always going.

To be people who naturally going on over there. There’s those two women that have just set their own business now. They’ve just met their ying and their yang, and they’ve ying and yang. They’re doing their thing.

That’s the big dream. That’s where I think of like, where. Because I. I think there’s so much more as we. We grow and rebuild. I think the stories of these women and connecting the women to other guests. And then it’s like, you know, we start off just three people on the call, but then kind of that like six, you know, what is it? Six degrees of separation or three degrees of separation or whatever. It’s actually like everyone kind of really knows each other. If you think about this little bubble that we’ve created. And again, I always playfully think of like, we’re all just hanging out now, whether it’s virtually or in person. That would be cool.

That would be very cool. And we do actually, we have like I’ve mentioned, we do have a call with people before.

Yes.

Podcast with them. And we do actually. We, you know, we talk about business and we go, oh, actually, we know a woman.

Yes.

Does this. You should really speak to her. Here’s her details. We actually really do that. Yes, yes. I’m building that network.

We are, we are. And women are very receptive. I mean, I think that, that for me is where, when I think about fearless and flawed. Yes. There’s always that business aspect to it. There should be. We are very much a women in charge, business focused podcast. But again, for me, it is such a big piece of the social connection and I hope that it always stays that way because again, it’s, I agree, enhance. It enhances whatever is happening day to day here, which I’m meeting new people, I’m volunteering, I’m doing all those great things. But I, I, I, I see the value so much in the virtual connection being more than just a stagnant, stale zoom call. And I think that’s the power being.

A female entrepreneur now. I do. I, I mean, I have a small team that help me shout out to Abby, Cody, Abigail, Jack. I do. And, and Alyssa. I might forget her. She’s my daughter, but she does help me.

I love your show.

Oh, no, that’s in my, my little conceptive company. See, look at me. Calling it little. It’s not that little. It’s doing okay. So what was my point?

That.

Anyway, it’s lonely being an entrepreneur. It’s lonely being an entrepreneur, full stop. I think it’s even more lonely being a female entrepreneur because there’s something to be said about succeeding as a female. It’s succeeding as a Brit, you know, Gosh, you don’t talk about. I talk about success. Failure is so much more dignified. Talk about. So we, you know, we kind of pull back. We don’t want to be seen as. Yeah, it’s lonely. It’s just lonely being an entrepreneur. And yeah, you have to make decisions. 90% of my day is making decisions. I don’t want to make decisions. It’s hard work. So it’s really nice to meet other women in the same situation out there. Our peers.

Yes, they are.

I have no idea where to find them in reality.

Yes, yes. Isn’t that funny? It’s like, where do you. But then, but then they come in an abundance on the show. It’s like. But those people are your neighbors. Those people are people that. You know, like I mentioned earlier, there’s so many people, so many women that like, they were in 3 to 5 mile drive, but I would have never known when I was in Boston because you just figure that they’re there somewhere, but they’re not near you. That’s kind of a normal human thing. They’re out there somewhere. But again, let’s rock. They live somewhere in Europe. And the truth is, no, they could be right down the street from you with the same exact experience. But we have to be open to it. And I wonder if there’s any.

You know, as we look forward to the new year, I wonder if there’s any topics, because we. We generally have the same kind of format for our podcast. But I’m wondering if there’s any topics that you want to double click on or introduce or themes that you. That you’re. That you’re itching to dive deeper into in the new year. Anything come to mind?

Absolutely nothing. This. I’m loving the female stories. I’m loving the female entrepreneur side of things. I’d like to grow that more than change it.

Yes, I. I would. I absolutely agree. I like to piggyback on that and say, if anything, I’d like to take these stories because we often hear about where it began, the struggle, the obstacle, the success. I want to hear more about dreaming about where people are going, because I think that’s kind of always, you know, we ask that question often, you know, what’s the next step? And I will say most of the time, the answer is kind of lackluster. I’m just gonna kind of. I’m just gonna kind of keep doing what I do. Like, I think that dreaming part is so essential now. Like, what’s. We think too logically sometimes, or we’re scared. I don’t want to say a big number or I don’t want to say. And we’ve heard women say that. Oh, I don’t want to.

I don’t want to jinx myself, but I’m coming out with a new program, and I want more of that. No, no. What’s the next step in a perfect world? You know What? I sell 1200 memberships that question to really drill it because we get so many logical answers. Well, I’m just happy to where I am or I’m not really sure what the future is. It’s like, no, no, no. Dream a little bit. What’s the perfect freaking scenario?

Well, we all need to know. We all need to know where it is that we want to go. I mean, the podcast, I love. Yeah. My business, on the other hand.

And yes, sure. But that’s. But I think creating that and encouraging that answer again, even getting a little silly with it, you know, the gin and jammies party with a hundred people in a Boston started off.

This was me asking you, Sarah. Okay, Zoe, Coco’s been sold. You’re. You’re now consultant.

Yes.

What does that look like? For you.

Sometimes people don’t know. Like in my own case, like, well, what’s the next step?

It was, I want to help female businesses.

I don’t necessarily know exactly what I want to do, right? Because when you have a skill set that’s, that’s pretty broad. You own a company, you wear all hats, right? It’s like, well, what’s your next step? Well, I’m not going to own another company, but I think you’re right. Somewhere I heard on another podcast or another, some YouTube program I was watching, you don’t know exactly what you want, right? That’s a challenge in life. We get too stuck on we don’t know what we want. Write down what you don’t want because that’s equally as powerful. And I remember writing down that I knew, I didn’t know how or what it looked like, but I knew I wanted to work with females. Female entrepreneurs, whether it was for profit or nonprofit, didn’t matter. But I needed to be connected to women. That was important.

I also knew, you know, the opposite of that was not that I wouldn’t work with men, but I knew that didn’t draw the same type of passion, the same type of conviction, and that’s okay. So I made that very clear. Now, whatever that looks like, in this case, it was the podcast, but whatever that looks like in the future too, you know, I’m doing a volunteer program now where I have an elderly companion, 84 year old Carmen, who I visit once a week. There is something very beautiful about. Again, I’m going to get a little woo. My Spanish grandmother’s name was Carmen. And I always kind of lamented as an adult that I didn’t have a deeper connection with her. You know, she lived in a different country. I was your typical young kid.

When grandma called, I didn’t want to talk to her on the phone. So as an adult now, I do lament that, you know, and I do see that the ability now to connect with Carmen in my neighborhood and hang out with her. And you know, when the volunteer program manager said, do you prefer a man or a woman as your elderly companion, I said, listen, I will take whoever, but if I can prefer, I would prefer a woman. Because there is something really powerful about learning about a W, an 84 year old woman’s experience, Spanish woman’s experience, from her lens. So I think you’re absolutely right in that sometimes it’s not about fixing or overly tweaking something. Sometimes it’s just about Pressing the gas more on something.

If it’s working and you’re enjoying it. We don’t need to change the format. We don’t need to radically change anything. We do have to have some big, audacious goals, though. What’s 10 years? What 10 years look like? I’m thinking about that for my business. What, what does my, what’s my 10 years plan? My 10 year plan is to be retired at some point in that time.

Oh, yeah. But I, I have to have a plan. I think the plan too is the format works. The format is making sense. People are responding well. I think what we’re going to start seeing, I know what we’re going to start seeing is we’re going to get more and more women knocking on our door. And I am, and I know that even now we have people reaching out, that they have followings, they have big businesses, they have, you know, they’re bigger, they’re quote unquote, big names. And you start to think, oh, you’re interested in little old us, but why not?

I, I, I’m like, I’m trying to speak here. We have been, we actually went live the 1st of November.

Yes.

And the knock on effect has been huge. Huge, absolutely huge. We have, we have a whole host of followers. We have people outreaching to us personally for stuff.

Yes.

This has been, today is the 30th of November. This is our Christmas party, our holiday party, our gym and our gin and jammers. Yeah. We’ve had people reaching out to us.

Yeah.

Listen to your podcast. We like this theme. We want to talk to you about that. It’s, it’s phenomenal. It’s huge. It’s huge. I, the first episode, I thanked Sarah’s mum for listening, thinking that’s our biggest audience take.

She does. She is a fierce listener and a loyal listener and she listens to one podcast every single time she’s on the elliptical, which is every morning for 40 minutes. And so I will tell you, I will get, I don’t know if this is a blessing or a curse. I will get the full rundown from Barbara Ferrer the day after or a couple days after. And let me tell you, though, I love my mom forever, for all the reasons in the world, but the fact that when she said to me, oh, no, I listen to every single one, I mean, it’s one a day, I, you know, that’s all we were banking on in the beginning. Right. And now I have family members, my brothers, my, you know, friends, your, Your family. Your husband had come in one time.

Remember were chatting after a call, and he came in and he gave us an update on, like, how were doing on Spotify. No, no. What was it Spotify?

Was it Apple podcasts? Yeah. Problem with our reviews. So we had a whole heap of reviews and they all went, so if you’re listening to this, please give us a review.

Give us a review.

Because Apple. Apple didn’t publish the first lot that we got.

Yes. So, but I mean, just the fact that, like, this is also, I mean, your husband, right, who, like, listen, like, I’ve interacted with him a handful of times, but now it’s like he came in, he, like, gave us the. The reviews update, and I was like, this is like a family affair. I freaking asleep, you know? And like, you’re. You mentioned your daughter earlier. Your daughter sees her mom doing something that is challenging, right? You are stepping out of your comfort zone. I just think, like, the impact that makes, not just on other women, but, like, your daughter’s looking at you like, holy shit. Like, my mom is doing something. She’s probably heard you talk about it. You probably talked to the dinner table about how challenging or how out of your comfort zone it is.

I, I have not. I do not talk to my ch. I do not talk to my children about them. Not, not. Not to any great extent. I, I want my daughter to feel as though she can take on the world.

Oh, interesting. But you know what? She.

Not that. Not that things should stop her. So, no, I, I, I don’t overly know.

Okay, I can. I’m, I’m curious. Let’s, let’s just interrupt the comment for a second. Well, I wonder. Like, again, I don’t to go to the dinner table and pour out all the fears. I, that might be a. But. But I’m curious. Are you. Would you not say, like, oh, I’m doing this podcast and like, oh, I’m more of like a back of the house person.

And like, yeah, she does know that. She, I mean, okay, she does, she does. But I, you know, I don’t go, oh, this is like my biggest fear. I sure. I haven’t done that. I’ve gone, oh, you know, I’m doing something really brave. I’m doing this. Not really my comfort zone, but I’m doing it anyway, you know? No, I’ve always told her that she can do whatever she wants to do and be whoever she wants to be. And I’m super You know, empowering. I want her to be empowered by me. Funniest thing, though, with my daughter is that years ago, she’s 18 now, so a few years ago, she was doing a school project and somebody said to her, what do you want to be when you grow up? She goes, I want to be an entrepreneur. Okay, cool. That’s me, like, really proud.

Oh, that’s really good.

You’re gonna be like, mum, no, I want to be a real one, was her words. I want to be a real entrepreneur mom.

Let me tell you. Those damn kids. I know that, like, you look.

That’s my story. Now she looks at me, she goes, mum, actually, you are actually an entrepreneur. So I’m.

You’re a cool mom. You’re. I. I saw Alyssa earlier, before we started the recording. Alyssa and I were chatting on Zoom and I did the typical Auntie Sarah thing. You know, you get to a certain age where you have to convince your friends, kids that. Not even convinced. You feel compelled to tell your friends kids how cool their mom is. Like, that’s the role I play whenever I talk to my friends kids. I’m always like, hey, listen up. Look. Look at me, look at me in the camera. You’re a mother’s really cool. You better know it. And you know what she said? I know that. I know. I was like, that is pretty freaking cool. That, like this strong, empowered 18 year old who’s going places, who.

Again, I don’t think it’s about passing your fears on to your kids either, because I’m sure that, that can’t be healthy. But I think it’s a matter of. She knows you, she is you, so she sees you doing something that’s really.

I think it would be fair to say that she knows I have fears.

Sure.

I’ve certainly never let her see me get stopped by them.

Right.

Apart from if it’s a big spider in the living room, then I’m not going in, but to, you know, to face. To step up to them. That’s. That’s what I want her to take away.

I think that’s beautiful.

And that she can take on. She can take on everything herself. She can do things herself. She’s awesome.

Yeah, no, I. I totally agree with you on that. I think that’s really well put. It’s not to pretend that they don’t exist. I think, again, it brings it back to the podcast. We don’t pretend that problems don’t exist. We don’t pretend that obstacles don’t exist, but we don’t we talk about them in a way of growth. We talk about them in a way of encouragement. We talk about them in a way of. We’re not dwelling. It’s just part of it just is this is what happened. Like, like, hey, this is challenging me to be X, Y and Z. But I’m doing it. And we’re going to be chatting and laughing and when we goof up, you know, we don’t dwell in the, like, oh my God, you know, my. The audio wasn’t working. It’s like, yeah, it wasn’t working.

It’s called fearless and flawed. Deal with it, people. But tune in next week when the audio does work. We’re human. I think that’s really, I think, you know, for me, for us, the life continues to go on in, you know, we live in a world too, as entrepreneurs where we often. I’m going to speak for myself. There’s always a bit of your. I feel like my hobbies these days have become things that in the back of my head I always go, well, how can you monetize it? How can you make it a business idea? How can you. And it’s really killed a lot of my joy because when you’re constantly in business mode, you’re constantly thinking business as opposed to like, can I just do something that’s fun for the sake of fun? Do you ever feel that?

Yeah, but I do. I’m, I, I, I’m scared that I’m boring my friends at the moment. Cause all I talk about is business.

I realize that it has become a big part of my identity, which is not a negative thing. But I’m challenging myself to explore the other side. Like I worked at a Spa for 12 years and I will say maybe it didn’t. It, it was a spa. I did not own the spa. I had my clientele, but I was not an entrepreneur. I did not own the spa. I started Zoe Coco. So I have that on the side. What I gained from that experience in 12 years was very powerful connection, gaining a loyal following. You know, I gained a lot of friends, A lot of clients became friends. I gained a sense of how things work. You know, soft skills. Right. We’re always. And I think about how many, you know, when I worked at the spa, I had Sunday and Monday off.

So I actually had hobbies. I off.

What are they? Identify.

Well, that’s something that I miss. And I also realize I have the ability and the autonomy to, you know, when you’re a business owner, you don’t actually take a day off. Even if you’re off, you’re constantly checking your phone, and that’s the hustle culture. But I challenge myself.

Checking your phone. Your. Your brain is working. You’re like, you just said about, how do I monetize that? Do I want to monetize that? Is that something I can do that with?

Do you know how many times I will go to a restaurant and my husband’s the same way, which is why, you know, you always kind of attract the same type of mentality. Go to a restaurant, and I’ll have, like, 30 seats, and we’ll be like, okay, wait. So they probably have two dinner shifts, like the seven and the nine. Okay. If they fill all 30 seats, what do you think the average ticket is? How much do you think? Okay, Fridays and Saturdays are there.

It’s like, I’m sticking my hand up here. Car parked. Okay. If they charge X amount per, they can fit in X amount of cars in here. Actually, that’s X amount per day. Oh, my God. This is just a waste of money. What a great business plan to get.

Into the car parking industry. Yes. The amount of that, which. Nope. I think that’s beautiful. I think that’s great. That’s beautiful. That’s the business brain. I’m not suggesting that needs to be changed. What I’m suggesting for myself is also understanding that there’s more to life than just calculating what the sales and the. And the monthly, you know, profit is of whatever facility or, you know, place you’re visiting. I think that there’s also that part of, like, it’s okay to take on a hobby, pottery or to go to paint. It’s okay to just be without a goal of optimization of something. That is what I’m working on. And again, living in Spain, it’s been a lot easier because people here, let me tell you, they just optimize to live and have a good time.

Yeah, I love that. But the thing. I mean, you’re talking about restaurants, and I kind of mentioned car parks. The other thing I do is somebody will say, oh, I do X. And I think, how do you make money out of that? Okay, so if that’s okay. So you must be on X. Y. And how do you live? Is that really a business? How do we make that better for you?

Then you’re. Then I’m, like, nervous that someone can’t be there. But, like, who? Who cares? Like. Like, there’s like, okay, how does that make sense? Like, okay, wait, wait. I thought all artists were starving artists. You don’t seem to be starving. Like, like, why? I. I think that they’re right. Totally. I mean, it’s sick. It’s fabulous. It’s healthy. It’s normal. But it’s sick to a degree because then I’m like, I spent all this time thinking about that when I could just be out at paint night or making a freaking. A flower vase at pottery class or. So that’s my. My challenge for. For.

You know, I can’t even walk in a coffee shop without thinking, oh, I’d love to own a coffee shop one day.

I’m. But then you run the numbers, Realize it’s not worth it. No, it’s not worth it.

We always run the hours. All you really do is cleaning up dirty cups.

That’s exactly it. And, like, you’ve got to be churning out, like, dollar coffee to, like, high traffic area. But then you’ve got another Covid hits. You’re screwed. Whenever I think about owning a coffee shop, I go to my kitchen, I make one cappuccino, and I’m exhausted. I’m exhausted. Like, really? You wait for the thing. I have an espresso. You wait for the thing to froth, you put on the. The cinnamon, and you’re just like, I can’t be doing this for 12 hours.

I think that’s the entrepreneurial brain, though. Do you think that’s the. That’s.

Yeah, I do. But listen, I think everything can be. Can be a gift and a curse. Every great thing in life in a curse, right? I. I talk far too much. It can be a curse at times where I don’t know how to shut the heck up. Other times, it’s a complete blessing. People go, we love having you here. You make the atmosphere so comfortable. Silence is a gift. At times, you need to know when to be silent. Other times, it’s called awkward silence for a reason. So you’re. You’re. You’re right. I don’t think it’s about labeling it as good or bad. In my own journey in this life, at 38 years old, I am seeking a bit more balance, however that may look. So it’s about acknowledging the parts that we are. The entrepreneur brain.

It has led me to forming a great friendship with you through entrepreneurship. But at the same time, I also don’t want to be calculating the monthly sales of whatever establishment I’m eating at or like. Or like, the margins on an appetizer that I think is too overpriced.

Brain goes, yeah, it’s sick.

So what’s the remedy? I think we just need more starving artist friends who are in it for the art of it, the experience of it. That’s.

Maybe it’s our. Aren’t we as entrepreneurs? I think we. I think that’s. That’s also part of the same game.

Totally. Totally. So I think we need to meet more. Like, it’s not about taking away. It’s about adding to this is who I am. You get to a point. This podcast is all about accepting who we are. It’s not about changing. But can we add more of the other side for the balance of. Maybe there’s people out there who are super artsy fartsy, who actually not maybe. I know there’s a lot of true artists out there who go, yeah, I would love to know about business, but I’m kind of scared about it. Or, like, I’m not supposed to be a business brain because I’m an artist and I’m not supposed to go into the dark side, but being an artist requires me to sell, and, like, I have to figure that out.

And so I think that there’s a happy medium of just not always being in the extreme mind.

I have grown into my entrepreneurial brain. I’m an artist at heart.

I know you are. Oh, I know you are. You are an artist through. This is why you’re a unicorn. When I. When I was first introduced to you were positioned as a. You have to meet Serena. She’s a unicorn now. At the time, I had no idea what that term meant, so I was like, y’all, that. This was like seven years ago. She’s a unicorn. Like, she’s magical. I get that. But, like, what does it really mean? Who is she? And it’s like, well, she’s like this amazing artist. She’s an amazing thinker designer, but she’s also, like, she worked in tech and, like, she also has this logical brain. But to your point, you had to work on that. I mean, that. That. That’s years of mastering different skills. Skills and also bringing to the surface some of your natural abilities.

But working on it. I’ve seen it. You’re up until 2:00am, 3:00am you know, most days when we work together in Zoe Coco. And you know what? You were up because it was usually like a couple of pixels on a. It would just keep you.

I can’t leave it quickly now.

Lucky me. This is why you’re like, you want to do a podcast? I’m like, yeah, to the same Crazy lady who’s up worrying about. I know this podcast.

I’m learning, I’m learning. 80% is enough. Most people don’t get anywhere close to that, so 80% is enough.

The, the. As we, as we kind of wrap up our little holiday shindig here, I want to just also mention. I want to mention a quote. Was it from Woody Allen? I know he’s kind of been canceled, so whatever. But he said, like what, 85% of success or 90% of success or some large number, 80% of success is just showing up. Like, that’s the honest to God’s truth. I think if we take nothing else away, if the listeners take nothing else away from all this, I would want them to take away the fact that we just showed up and did it. We just. And, and, and Podcast one versus Podcast six is going to be vastly different behind the scenes. But when I ask listeners, hey, what did you feel about podcast one or Podcast six?

No one says, oh, Podcast one was total shit. No one says that, actually. In fact, I don’t even give people the, you know, the preamble of, well, you know, we’re new, so don’t expect much. I don’t do that because what I find is that most people, if not all go, why would you cramp failure. Well, you know what it is, because it’s, it’s. It’s. I don’t want, you know, it’s. It’s the classic thing we do where it’s like, well, if it’s not per. Here’s why.

Well, to be fair, I have been involved in a few podcasts before. Now I have a few tricks onto my.

Oh, listen, I know you. You were the one who was like, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Let’s just do it. So I knew that you had this.

I had to be perfect. I was never going to do it. This is never going to happen.

Never going to happen. But we did it. We showed up. Shall we? Cheers to that.

We shall. Cheers to that. Cheers.

Thank you everyone, for listening. This has been awesome. Serena, thank you as always, my trusty sidekick and partner. And here’s the best part, where this might be a holiday episode. I don’t know when it will air. I’m sure you’ll take care of that. But I get to see you next week for our next podcast interview. So I’ll see you in.

We have another two recordings and a couple of free chat for next week. Yeah. After2025.

Thank you, everyone, for listening. And here’s to a happy and prosperous 2025.