Sara Ferrer: [00:00:00] Welcome to Fearless and Flawed. Today, we're joined by Aleksandra Plazinic, a communications coach, trainer, lecturer, and speaker who helps women get past the fear of speaking up and communicate with real confidence. She has a PhD in communications, and her book, Fearless Female Speakers, launched just a couple of weeks ago.

Serena Reynolds: She set out to write a book about the fear of public speaking. Then she read it back and realized she had actually written a book about imposter syndrome, her own. She told us on our pre-chat she's still working on. 

Sara Ferrer: Which is exactly what I was hoping for, and not at all what I expected. When someone writes the book on this, there's always a risk they turn up as the person who knows everything.

Sara Ferrer: Aleksandra turned up honest instead 

Serena Reynolds: I'm [00:01:00] Serena. I produce podcasts and webinars that grow your business. 

Sara Ferrer: And I'm Sara, an email marketing pro here to convert clicks into cash. And together, Serena and I are two women in charge, digging into the fearless, the flawed, and the ever-so-fabulous journeys of female founders rewriting the rules.

Serena Reynolds: So let's dig in. Welcome to our show, Aleksandra. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Thank you so much for having me. 

Serena Reynolds: So that's my, uh, public speaking done for this week, thank God. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Perfect. 

Sara Ferrer: It's great. But, but Aleksandra, listen, we gotta keep practicing. This ties into public speaking, what we don't do well. I think the only way forward is to keep doing it, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: I agree. It's always what you hear, right? Practice, practice, practice. And what are you focusing now is, of course, on the delivery, which is what we mostly focus on, right? On the performance level. How do we sound? [00:02:00] Um, are we making an impact? Um, will people approve what we say? Maybe I should s- say it better, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: So these are the, the common themes that I hear, uh, from many women, which is important, but I want us as well to dig a little bit deeper because it's not just about delivery. It's not ju- just about performance. It's not about, okay, I can do this better, or I should memorize all the, the words and, you know, the sentences which I can share, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: How do you can open your speech, great, how you can close it. But it's, it's more than that. We work from inside out. 

Serena Reynolds: Okay. I wanna, I wanna dive really into this. I mean, I've got so many faults when it comes to public speaking or, or even speaking in general. Like, on Zoom calls, if I play back, I move my head too much.

Serena Reynolds: My hands are too involved. I feel like a puppet. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Nothing wrong with that. 

Serena Reynolds: I, I, well, I've [00:03:00] been told that other people don't notice it, but when I watch it back, I really notice it. So then all of a sudden I'm sitting there like this, and I don't want to blink, and I, you know, I find it very hard to get that balance right.

Serena Reynolds: My secret is never watch yourself backwards. Never watch it. Just ignore the fact it happened. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Very common. Nobody wants to hear their own voice because we, we have, like, the different projection, right? How do we see each other? How do we project our voice? And then when we see it externally, it's totally different, which is f- Which is okay.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I mean it is very, very human. Unless, of c- of course, uh, if you're very grandiose and then you're l- in love with yourself. But I think for most women that I, that I talk with, and even of course when, from my personal experience, it's always of course you're gonna find a flaw or something that you could do better, which is okay, we always want to improve, but [00:04:00] at the same time we want to acknowledge what we already have.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So what we're good at and, um, what you're saying with your, uh, non-verbal signs that you're, you're showing, I think that's good, uh, because it shows your personality and you're, you're being authentic, and this is what I actually want to promote more for everybody. I was of- often like even laughed at in elementary school because I, I, I used a lot of hands gestures when I was explaining something.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And, uh, the system that I come from was very, let's say, a little bit strict, where you have to stand and just, uh, stand like a soldier and just answer, uh, the questions. But afterwards I realized it is part of my personality, and I like to embrace it, and it helped me, uh, to connect better with people. And, uh, I got a very positive feedback afterwards in my life, so I still keep that.

Sara Ferrer: You know what I think of a lot when, when, you know, when I think about your book, um, Fearless Female Speakers, and I think nowadays, love the title, [00:05:00] very, very relevant, but I, I think a lot about like TED Talks these days, right? And like when you watch a TED Talk, it's, it's not necessarily the message, but it's how the message is delivered.

Sara Ferrer: Of course, there's a format to storytelling, but how can... And sometimes TED Talks can be about, I mean, let's call it for lack of a better word, like boring data. How do you make boring data exciting? How do you present this to a group full of people? And so I am curious in, you know, your book just dropped, you're out here promoting it, a couple things to touch on.

Sara Ferrer: Number one, again, the title, Fearless Female Speakers, how do we become that? And second In becoming that, you mentioned personality. And Serena mentioned, you know, "Hey, I do too much of this and I have to tone it down." And I, I, I often think that when I speak with other females, and I'm sure it happens with males too, but maybe females, it- I'm just around more female speakers in general.

Sara Ferrer: But we tend to [00:06:00] critique and nitpick and want to subdue all the isms that we have to be the non-blinking, non-breathing machine. So I'm sure the book touches on that, but just kinda, you know, give us the high level at first, TLDR, like what are the three pillars, four pillars of becoming a great speaker, and then dive into those in terms of how do we get there?

Serena Reynolds: Do you mind if I just jump in very quickly here? 'Cause it's kind of amusing this. Obviously, I am a subscriber of Fearless and Flawed 'cause it's an awesome podcast and everyone should be a subscriber to it. But occasionally it will come up As I'm driving, Fearless and Flawed will come on, and, you know, I think, "Yeah, great catchy tune."

Serena Reynolds: I haven't really recognized it. And then Sara starts speaking and I think, "Oh, she's got a nice sounding voice." And then I hear myself. I do the same thing. 

Sara Ferrer: Oh, that's me, dude. I hear you, Serena, and I'm like, "Look at that. There, that's the British queen we all need [00:07:00] in our lives." Oh, I do the same. And then I hear me and I'm like, "Who brought in the trucker?"

Sara Ferrer: Wah. 

Serena Reynolds: So what is this going on? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: That's actually perfect what you say, girls. Actually, you can give feedback to your- yourself, I mean, to each other. Because we always see each other from, uh, from our own perspective, and of course, you find flaws, it could be better. Uh, it can always, right, be better. But if we're chasing the, the perfection, it's like, uh, what I found out from my own experience, it's like you're...

Aleksandra Plazinic: It's a moving target. You, you never get there. It's always, "Okay, now it's perfect." No, just a little bit of this, of that. And then, um, actually what I teach, uh, women, and in my book, it's not to be perfect, it's to be grounded. Because it comes from the inside actually perspective of yourself. Once you're, you're grounded, you know exactly where you are, you know what, what is your message, what is your authenticity, what do you want to share with your [00:08:00] audience, and most importantly, what do you want to serve them, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: Not to please them, not to entertain them, not to perform as we often do, but really that, that you have this authentic voice and the message that, that you want to, uh, share. And, um, w- you will find as well this, um, this exercise in the book, and I think it's great that, yeah, you're working this podcast together so you can do that.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And you can, you can go into the role of your friend, right? Or your mentor, or somebody who would look at your CV or would watch your podcast, um, objectively, uh, saying, "Okay, this was good. Uh, uh, this can be better," and so on. And you can, you can do that in pair, right? Uh, because we often, when we take the role of a, of a friend or somebody that does not know us, I know I took a lot of CVs of many women.

Aleksandra Plazinic: When they list all the achievements and I'm amazed, I'm like, "Wow, this person is standing in front of me," and [00:09:00] yet they don't see it. But when they take this perspective, then it shifts as well something within yourself. You realize it more. You become aware of who you really are actually. 

Serena Reynolds: So, I mean, your book is specifically aimed at females.

Aleksandra Plazinic: It is, yeah. Because I've noticed, um, this is mostly the, the issue with females. Um, maybe it's the, of course, the society that we brought in. In general, that hasn't changed a lot. Women are judge- judged more. Women judge themselves more. Uh, we get as well harsher evaluations in general, right? In life and, um, in career.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I can, I can tell you perspective from the university professors. When we get evaluations, uh, actually in the, the statistics, the, the female lecturers are, have always have the harsher evaluations from male and female students. This is not just [00:10:00] for one profession, but in general I saw it, um, as a pattern. I think various reasons.

Aleksandra Plazinic: It's, um, what we are expected to be as women, as little girls, and then as women. One, does society expects from you? What does the, your family expects from you? What do you expect as well? And then, um, how to match these expectations. But at the same time, right, if you're a very good girl or if you're very polite, very kind, nice, uh, that's great to play the, the female role, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: But if you want to get head up in your career, uh, it's, it's not very helpful. But at the same time, if you want to turn to be as a male, again, expectations. Then you're difficult, you're strict, you're rude, and so on. So yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: So I, I'm, I'm thi- as, as you're saying that, I'm thinking back to being a child or, or how we speak to girls versus how we [00:11:00] speak to boys very early on in their lives You know, um, "Oh, she's such a pretty girl," 

Aleksandra Plazinic: right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: Yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: Um, I mean, you never say, "Oh, he's such..." Maybe you do, but you don't s- you don't say it as often, "Oh, he's a pretty boy. Oh, he's, he's, he's funny boy. He's- No, but it's, "Look at the girls braiding their hair in the corner and making jewelry, and look at the boys climbing and exploring." Like, there is kind of that, like- "You're brave, you're strong, you're..."

Serena Reynolds: Those words are used for boys. And the girls are, the girls are- And pretty and dainty and, you know, maybe, maybe that's not... May- maybe that's where it all comes from. Maybe it starts from there. I d- I don't know. I need a, I need a psychologist here. Um, . 

Aleksandra Plazinic: There is some research now, like when, when you compare as well in schools, um, boys and girls, actually the girls perform better if they're just in the, the girls environment, 'cause then they would take more, um, opportunities to [00:12:00] try something new.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Um, they would challenge themselves more, and so on. But at the same time, I think it's projected afterwards, right? What, what does it mean to be a good girl? I don't know. From, from my perspective, right, that you have to do very well at school, you have to behave well, right? Uh, for up- 

Serena Reynolds: Sit up straight, don't 

Serena Reynolds: fidget 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Yes. All that, and that, that projected afterwards, right? 

Sara Ferrer: And where, where does, where does imposter syndrome kinda weave its way into all of this? Because that is something that I believe is seen more or has been shown to be, you know, more prevalent in girls. So can you speak to when, what age does that begin at, and how does it show, how does it manifest itself in public speaking, in presenting oneself?

Serena Reynolds: Um, I mean, imposter syndrome is one of the biggest topics we have with females on this show It seems to be that [00:13:00] one common thread that runs through all of us 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Exactly. Well, I'm not surprised with that one, because when I wrote this book, right, usually people who write the book of overcoming fear of public speaking, they used to be afraid of public speaking, and they have a kind of a journey that they want to share, what worked for them, and so on.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Uh, my issue was different. I was actually never afraid of public speaking. I love to perform since I was a very young age. Uh, I teach at the university. I like to present. Uh, it's, it's my natural habitat. My issue was exactly coming to imposter syndrome, and that is I wanted to prove, right? So every time I had to speak and there was somebody new, or there's a new course starting, or, uh, you have the, the experts or some people that you need to, um, let's say, perform to, I, I was into this proving dynamic, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: So th- this is where I found out, right, that I, all of a sudden was lacking [00:14:00] confidence or I had to overprepare. Okay, I was very concerned what they're gonna say, how they're gonna evaluate me, and I realized that comes from my imposter syndrome. So imposter syndrome come, comes from a very early age. So I was a straight A student, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: All the, the expectations. My family's, my, my parents are overachievers. Uh, they're very educated, very successful in their careers, and that was, uh, the bar. Okay, they never said, "Okay, you have to do this," or, "You have to achieve this," but it was, um, a silent, right, um, bar that is, uh, very high up. And they would always say, "No, but we're, we know what you're capable of.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Uh, you can do that," right? "We wouldn't ask anything," right, "that you cannot, uh, do that. You're intelligent, you're capable, you're disciplined," and so on. And the other part comes from, I think, from my educational system that was very strict, where you would get, uh, usually negative [00:15:00] feedback. So with the positive one, okay, if you get a straight A, that's okay, great, well done, but then, okay, you have to keep up.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Uh, and you always have to be- 

Serena Reynolds: What do you mean you only got 98%? What happened to the other 2%? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Exactly, right? And if you, if you get a B, they're like, "Oh, you slipped there. What happened there? You're, you're actually, uh, you should be careful," right? "Your, um, your grades are, are going down." So this is something that stuck more with me, right, than okay, that I should celebrate more my successes.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Um, definitely now, uh, I realize that, uh, that is the, um, that is very important, right, to embed our success. So I was never Uh, and I see that w- with a lot of women that I talk to, is that, uh, they're always like, "Oh, how does it feel," right? "That you achieved this?" They're like, "Yeah, okay. Uh, what's next?" And then what's the next goal?

Aleksandra Plazinic: And [00:16:00] we, we always, and I've noticed that with myself, right? Um, okay, that is ticked. What is the next one to, again, be, to sustain, uh, being, um, this achieved, uh, professional that is doing very well, right? That you're not sleeping on your, uh, past success, right? 

Sara Ferrer: So if, if, if, if someone comes to you and says, "Hey," like, you know, they haven't read the book yet, right?

Sara Ferrer: But they just come wanna know, like, everything you're saying right now, it speaks to me. I feel like I'm constantly just checking things off. I'm underplaying my success. What are, like, the primary, the first steps to presenting yourself better, more confident? Is it, is it the non-verbal? Is it the pace? Is it sitting up straight?

Sara Ferrer: Is it eye contact? Like, or is it, is it more inner? Is it just believe that you're the shit, and like, that's great? Like, where, where do we start? Just- Hey, it 

Serena Reynolds: works for some politicians I can name. 

Sara Ferrer: Sure does. Sure does [00:17:00] You know? I mean- 

Serena Reynolds: But not the female ones, though. But, 

Sara Ferrer: but there's kind of like that, I, I'm sure you've heard the phrase that like if you're ever nervous, just imagine everyone in the audience is in their underwear.

Sara Ferrer: You know, it's kind of like, like I, I've done that and that, in fact, I got more nervous 'cause I was like, "Oh, this is, this is too mu- " But so how does one, how does one begin the approach? What would you say are kind of the fundamental steps to becoming that fearless woman speaker? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: So to start with the base, we have to be aware of our achievements.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So this is the base that, uh, helped me once I felt finally that I embedded all my achievements, my accomplishments, that are p- they're part of me. Because, um, I usu- usually saw it as outside of me, that somebody has achieved that, or I was lucky, or something happened there. I knew, okay, that I was proud at one point, but then I didn't really embrace that.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And this is where the grounding, uh, part starts, [00:18:00] right? That, uh, you know that you have done, uh, through difficulties to get there. Uh, you, you knew what you have to achieve, uh, what were the challenges and so on, and finally it is yours. So it's a little bit of the process, uh, but this is the, the baseline, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: To, to feel grounded, not perfect, right? So somebody can, uh, say, "Okay, I have a university degree." Somebody s- can say, "Okay, I make a great coffee. I can do great makeup. I'm a great friend." So these are all the achievements and something that you have done, right? Nobody gave that to, to, uh, to you, right? You had to make an effort.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And then from there, um, so I call it the fearless speaker method, uh, that, um, uh, is, uh, based on three, um, aspects. It is the mind, body, and emotions. And then from there we dive into the content. So content and what we have to say, right? The [00:19:00] delivery, uh, part, um, comes last. And, um, the reason actually I like to start with the body, and I love that you, that you mentioned, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: We have to s- sit up straight, stand up straight, uh, uh, look a little bit up, um, so we can, we can do it right now because often we forget we're just there spontaneously we let our body hang out. And, um, to look a l- little bit up, and for women I love, I love them to imagine like they're wearing a crown. So how would you feel if you wear the- 

Sara Ferrer: Oh, girl, I, I'm, I'm, I'm lifting, I'm li- I'm lifting more up now.

Sara Ferrer: That's a, that's a big crown we got on. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Exactly. Because the body, uh, we, we don't have to like speak to our body. We don't have to believe in it, you know? With the mind, if you start with the mind first, the mind takes us, you know, to different stories and it's not easy to override that So that's why I want to start with the, the body emotions, and then afterwards come with the mind once [00:20:00] we're, we're settled.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Uh, you probably heard of the, the power woman pose. I love that. Uh, it really does wonders if you stand for two minutes. Uh, it's not just to, to make a position and that's it, but really try to stay two minutes. Um, count it, because if you-- after 30 minutes, you, you want to, um, you want to give up. But actually two minutes is, is very important to start feeling that, um, that confidence, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: That, uh, that is already in you, um, and that you can project. Uh, first of all, that you feel it and then you can project to, to your audience. That's why it starts from ourselves. What, what you said, right, with the tip that didn't work is because we're then focused on our audience. I don't want us to focus on our audience, uh, in the sense that I don't want you to please them.

Aleksandra Plazinic: We're not there to please our audience. 'Cause if you're pleasing, that's... And I've been there, [00:21:00] especially when I started with my, my workshops. I wanted to please everybody, to be liked. Do they like my method? I want them to be really engaged in my techniques. But then the moment I switched to serving them, that, uh, was a great shift.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Because, okay, here I am, the perfect, uh, right, uh, not perfect, but fearless and flawless. And the moment I, uh, I was like, "Okay, here's my information. Here's what I do. Here's what I believe will, will, uh, serve you, and it is up to you whether you take it or not." And the audience actually, uh, welcomed it better than when I was trying to, to be this little monkey.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And then you adjust-- you, you want to adjust so badly to your audience, and they feel that, and you lose your credibility, and you don't feel good 'cause you're in this, this mode where your self-confidence is, uh, decreasing, right? That you have to prove something, again, with [00:22:00] this proving dynamic and, um, you're just diminishing yourself inside yourself, and the others can feel that.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So we want to turn that around and do it differently. 

Serena Reynolds: So, um, I, I have the privilege of knowing a number of very fearless, wonderful women that do public speaking, whether that's at keynote speakers, at webinars, podcasts, um, across industries. One of the things that I have, that I have spoken about actually twice this week, and it's quite common, quite a t- common topic, is how they feel the pressure leading up to an event is so much greater for them.

Serena Reynolds: They're jealous of the bald guy that gets in the shower, shampoos all over, puts his suit on, and walks on stage. They have to worry about [00:23:00] what they're wearing, how their makeup looks, what their hair's doing that day, and that's all before the event Have you got any tips around that? Have you, have you experienced this?

Serena Reynolds: How, how do you overcome this as an issue? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: So again, yes, this come from the, this image of the perfection, right? That we have to have everything set up, and I've been there, right? Especially for the women, where we want to look nice. You, you want to feel good. You 

Serena Reynolds: want to- But not too sexy. Not... You wanna look smart- Yeah

Serena Reynolds: not sexy, but, you know, you don't wanna stand out, but you wanna stand out enough. It's, it's, it's a balance. It's hard. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: I agree. I agree. Uh, yeah, for w- for men, in that, in that area it's, it's easier. But I had, for instance, one client, um, that she had to present in front of the UN, and, uh, she's a very petite lady with a very gentle voice.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So she, but she had to be very impactful in her message. And [00:24:00] we did different exercises, and then when we came, uh, to the part, "Okay, what are you wearing? What is something that, um, you feel confident in, that you feel that you can project?" Then she remembered, right, she has this black dress that goes perfectly with every, uh, occasion, so we were like, "Okay, we're gonna pick that.

Aleksandra Plazinic: That's gonna help you feel good." 'Cause in some clothes we, we feel, uh, as well, more powerful. And, uh, I don't want you as well, when, when people say, "Okay, I'm not afraid of public speaking, so it's zero," that means probably you're in your pajama and you're watching Netflix. This is not how we want to project.

Aleksandra Plazinic: You cannot project a lot of, as well, self-confidence from, from that state. And what helped her, for instance, wh- when we came, um, to that, that she picked, uh, her lipstick, her favorite, favorite lipstick, so it was a red color. And then I read afterwards with the research actually, if you wear the red [00:25:00] lipstick, uh, then, um, men listen to you more.

Aleksandra Plazinic: There is some, uh, some- 

Serena Reynolds: Hey, look, I have to tell you- ... research in that ... as a blonde with red undertone, there's no way I'm pulling off red lipstick. No way. But they'll listen to you, Serena. They'll listen to you, and they'll say, "What the hell is that blonde lady- ... with red lipstick say?" Maybe that proves her point.

Serena Reynolds: Maybe that's why they're not listening to me. I'm like, "No, I need a nude lip." Yeah. 

Sara Ferrer: Right. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: For instance, yes, this is what worked for, for my client, and this is, um, the research, right? Especially not, okay, everybody will listen to you. There is just a focus of the color, and especially for men. But I think as well, 'cause you're blonde, uh, blonde women as well get more attention.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You stick out with your, yeah, blonde color, so maybe you don't need that, that lipstick. You're like that. Where more brunettes... 

Serena Reynolds: But it doesn't necessarily read as, as an intelligent- [00:26:00] Hair color. Dolly Parton, I love this, quote her, something about being blonde. She goes, "Oh, I don't know, darling.

Serena Reynolds: It's not real." And that was it. That just made me laugh. Oh, what was it about being a dumb blonde? How do you feel about being a dumb blonde? She said, "Well, I, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not blonde, and I'm not dumb, so..." So yeah, so something like that. I'm gonna have to find that now and put it on our Fearless and Flawed site.

Aleksandra Plazinic: That comes again to grounded, what do you think about yourself, you know, and how do you feel about your looks, how do you feel about your achievements, um, and, and things like that. 

Serena Reynolds: But don't you, but don't you feel as though it's not about what you think about it? I mean, I'm blonde by nature. Well, a little bit of bleach, you know, a little helping hand.

Serena Reynolds: Uh, but you know, I'm, I'm naturally blonde. I'm so- 

Aleksandra Plazinic: You're perfect. 

Serena Reynolds: No, no, my, my point is it's not my opinion when I [00:27:00] walk in a room, it's everybody else's around me Based on what you're wearing, how low your top is, whether your shoulders are showing, depending on what room you're walking in. There's different rooms, different looks, different, different approaches.

Serena Reynolds: Or at least that's what I found throughout my journey through business. It's not always about... I, I mean, I, I completely get that whole, whole authenticity thing. I've learned over the time that, you know, so what, I move my hands a lot, I wiggle my head a lot, and I stumble over my words a lot. But the, the base is there.

Serena Reynolds: I know what I'm talking about. And so, you know, forget the fact I'm blonde, forget the fact, you know, whatever. Um, I have to go and work on that premise that I've been here, I've done this, I know what I'm talking about. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Exactly. And that, that is the, not just the opinion, this is who you are, and this is most [00:28:00] important.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And, you know, if you're presenting- 

Serena Reynolds: But I still walk in that room and I still get, "Oh, blonde girl." I still, I feel it. 

Sara Ferrer: I know it But you know what, Serena? I think that this is interesting that you're saying this, 'cause I've known Serena for, for many years. Um, there is-- I talk a lot about this topic with my husband as well, because, like, he is intelligent.

Sara Ferrer: Serena's incredibly intelligent. And, and Serena, you and I have talked about this idea that, like, I do good work. My work should kinda speak for itself. My husband feels the same way. He always says, "I don't have to razzle and dazzle." I mean, I have to be kind and polite, and I have to, you know, read the room.

Sara Ferrer: But I don't need to be a performer. And sometimes what ends up happening is the performers, the, the really, I don't wanna say slick and sly, but the really charismatic and charming, um, speakers, the squeaky wheel gets, gets the attention. And sometimes that squeaky wheel doesn't have the base of [00:29:00] experience and of merit.

Sara Ferrer: And so Alexandra, how do you-- how does one reconcile? 'Cause I can totally buy into know your accomplishments, believe in them. That's first step, and next is, like, pick a power outfit or a great lipstick color, feel confident. But then sometimes you see someone who is, just has the charm and the charisma, and has nothing behind it, and there's kind of a little bit of a defeated like, "Well, what the f**k?"

Sara Ferrer: Like, should I just become a showman? Does that make sense? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Yes. I mean, I, I, I know exactly what you mean, right? Uh, we- but that, one of the, one of the things is to c- that we compare ourselves to, to the others, right? So that's them. Maybe they, they're working more on their delivery, on their performance, on their marketing.

Aleksandra Plazinic: There's nothing, um, below that, right? I'm not saying like I've heard a lot of women, uh, say, "Okay, I don't... I have to speak up for myself more. I have to show my, uh, [00:30:00] achievements more," and I absolutely agree with that because I've been there as well. Somebody will recognize, uh, my contribution or my expertise.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Some people will, for sure. But you have to as well ask for it, and you have to present yourself. That, however, does not mean that you have to be aggressive or y- that you have to be, let's say, as that person that you're pointing out. But you can find some models that work for you. Um, so somebody that, uh, for instance, a person that you like their, how they deliver the presentation, and still they're impactful, and you feel they're genuine and authentic.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So in that sense, you can find the, the role model and take as well the characteristics that you like from them and infuse them as your skills as well. So learn as well from them. We don't have to learn from anybody else. Um, so we have to find as well, you can find your own recipes, right? So what are the skills that you want to [00:31:00] embrace, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: Not necessarily, right, the, the opposite that you cannot resonate with, but something that you would improve and something what, what works for you. You can even find it from your own experience. Okay, when wa- was I the most impactful? When did I have the, the greatest presentation? And you take yourself as a model.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Okay, this is how I stood, this is how I spoke, this is what I was wearing, this was the result. I like that. I, I want to embed that in every presentation that I have. 

Sara Ferrer: Mm-hmm. That makes sense. It's kind of like a formula. And how much... Where does grace f- fit in all of this, right? 'Cause I'm hearing a lot about, like, knowing your accomplishments and feeling good about that.

Sara Ferrer: And let's talk about now you've done the presentation, you're going over it. You know, you're Serena, you're in the car, you're listening to yourself, right? You know you have to listen to yourself in order to get that model, but you are just like, "Why the hell did I say that? Oh my God, I interrupted her."

Sara Ferrer: Where [00:32:00] does grace live in all this, grace that we give ourselves? Do we... Is it at the forefront? Do we just have to look at this kind of like a mathematician, like there's no emotion, it's a formula? How do we, like, learn from it, but also not overly cringe where we just stop the process 'cause it's, it's too painful?

Sara Ferrer: We can't forgive ourselves for the, for the pace of talking or for the errors that we've committed. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: So again, coming back to the, yes, that perfection that we're chasing , right? So we... If we're always... Depends on your focus, right? So where your focus goes, this is where your energy will flow. So of course, seeing yourself From the, uh, okay, what was good?

Aleksandra Plazinic: Okay, let's change the narrative. What was really good? And then, okay, what is it something that I could improve on? And you know what, like, especially when it comes to public speaking, guys, you- a lot of, a lot of people are like, "Okay, what the audience will think about? Oh my God, this was cringe. I shouldn't [00:33:00] talk about it.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I shouldn't have done it." The thing is, there is this spotlight effect, and, um, everybody's so concerned with themselves and their lives, and they don't have... Maybe they thought about it, like, for a second while you were speaking or they were listening to you. After five min- minutes, that's all gone. That's all forgotten.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Everybody's into their lives, their, uh, daily chores. Uh, they don't spend a lot of time thinking about you actually. So this is, yeah, your narrative again that comes in. 

Sara Ferrer: That's so true. There was a, a... Just to layer on that, like, years ago, and I'm sure more studies have been produced since, I remember reading from Harvard, right, which means it must be, must be legit, that it was the idea of, like, if you have a pimple on your forehead, if you have spinach in your teeth and you think, "Oh my God, everyone's staring at it," but it turns out everyone has their own shit that they're going through.

Sara Ferrer: Everyone is like, "Well, don't look at this freckle. [00:34:00] Don't look at this. Oh my God, my, my hair is fr-" So to your point, everyone is basically so consumed, that's what I'm hearing. Everyone is so consumed in their own, in their own world, to really step outside and to highly criticize you would be atypical, is what I'm hearing.

Sara Ferrer: That's reassuring and scary at the same time, if that makes... It's reassuring, but it's also like, wow, we are really just self-consumed animals. 

Serena Reynolds: Well, it's, it's not just that. I mean, even on Zoom and, and here, my, my image is mirrored. So I see the image I l- I see in the mirror. When it's not that way round, I think, "Oh my God, my face is so lopsided.

Serena Reynolds: I'm so, so... Oh my... Oh, what's going on here? I can't bear it. How do I find that switch?" And you know, when we talk, we have the voice inside our head. It, it's, you know, we don't hear it the same way Whereas you sound the [00:35:00] same, Sara, when I hear you. You sound the same, and as I always hear you. 

Sara Ferrer: And you are always the elegant Queen's English for eight years straight.

Sara Ferrer: I'm like, "There's Serena. All is good." 

Serena Reynolds: You see, I just hear, I just hear some, like, really tabby Adele-sounding woman- 

Sara Ferrer: What? ... when I My-- the common comes out. Yes. But I really hear what Alexandra is saying. I, I, I think what I'm really taking away from all of this, I mean, this... And this is really huge. It's easy to say, but what I'm really taking away is be more gentle with yourself.

Sara Ferrer: Perfection is not, is not the goal. Progress is. Figure out on what you like, keep it. What you don't like, acknowledge, but keep it moving, right? Um, and also recognize that everyone is in their own doom and gloom, you know, spotlight effect most of the time, overly criticizing. So hell, you know? Like, it's not even [00:36:00] worth it to some degree to give too much thought to the outside world because no one cares anyways i-in terms of being overly consumed with what you're doing.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Exactly. Yes. One, especially when you're, for instance, when you're presenting, and I've seen a lot of presenters, and then you're watching so closely to the audience, and then you see somebody reaching out to their phone or, uh, like, I don't know, sighing or rolling their eyes, and they're like, "Oh my God." See, I, and I've been there as well, or they're in this, or they're with a straight face.

Aleksandra Plazinic: They don't say anything. Uh, and you're like, "Oh my God, they don't like my presentation. Uh, they're not gonna hire me," because I did a lot of trial lectures as well, and then I have the l- kind of, kind of a, they look like a jury. I'm like, "Oh my God, they don't like it. They're not," because we expect like, right, they're gonna nod and they're gonna support you.

Aleksandra Plazinic: But the thing is, you don't know what is happening in someone's head, especially if you do not know this [00:37:00] person. So we have to know the baseline, right? What they're really like. So what is their happy face? What, what is their face when they don't really like something? And we just assume after one second, uh, right, maybe this, this person, right, they saw a message or they're thinking about, "Okay, I have to pick up my kids, uh, later," or, uh, "I have this, oh my God, I have this deadline that I have to send this email."

Aleksandra Plazinic: And I've seen that I have a very straight face, for instance, when I'm really concentrating, uh, that I look almost very mad, and some people, um, they, they would think, okay, oh, uh, I'm not, I'm not actually answering anything, right? Especially with my students, with important- 

Serena Reynolds: That resting bitch face. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Well, yeah.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I love that face. Yeah. Yeah. Some women are ha- I mean, they're lucky that they have the resting victims face, which is more gentle, uh, than one with my Slavic background. [00:38:00] And but it actually, it, it means just I'm c- I'm really concentrated and I'm very, actually, I'm very interested what, what are you gonna say.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I'm just contemplating. But this is, this is the, you know, how people evaluate if you think of every second. Right? Um... 

Serena Reynolds: See, see, I'm a natural smiler for sure. Yeah. It's something I'd like to work on. Less smiley. I wanna be serious. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Oh, I've been, I've been there . I've been there with you. But- 

Sara Ferrer: But Serena, remember, it's pros and cons to everything, right?

Sara Ferrer: Your smileyness is someone's invitation to talk to you, right? Someone's resting bitch face might mean that they're taken more seriously in certain scenarios, but not approachable in others. So what I, I... This is very enlightening for me. There's no wrong or right. Blonde, brunette, black dress, pink power suit.

Sara Ferrer: Own it. 

Serena Reynolds: I love pink power suit, Sara. 

Sara Ferrer: Whatever it is. Yes. Whatever it is, own it. And [00:39:00] speaking of owning it, speaking of owning it, I have a very fun question for you, Aleksandra. A very wacky question indeed. I, I don't really know how to tie it in, because we typically ask the previous guest a question for our future guest, and they have no idea who the future guest is.

Sara Ferrer: And usually the questions are like, "What's your greatest failure that you've learned from?" Or, "If you had an extra hour in the day, what would you do?" But no, not this question. This question is... And I don't know how it came up in the previous conversation, but it came up. Uh, what haircut did you have along the path of life that you were most embarrassed or disappointed in, and why?

Sara Ferrer: I have no idea how it ca- I feel like- I think it was like a past conversation about when someone was young, they cut their hair. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Um, yeah. Well, actually, when, when I started to decide, uh, about my hair, I don't have that. But I remember a photo when I was five [00:40:00] and my parents cut my hair, so it was like a very short, short hair.

Aleksandra Plazinic: My mom still keeps saying that, "No, it looks so good on you. No, dad's hairstyle as well looks so good on you." But I thought it was, like, awful. It was horrible. 

Serena Reynolds: We all have them home cut ones, haven't we? The bowl cuts. Yeah. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: It was too short for me. I've never had the short hair. I, I had like a bob and all that, but like, that one was like really, really short one.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Like a, yeah, boy's hair. So that was- 

Sara Ferrer: You know, they say it's just hair, but it really can mess up your whole self-perception at the end of the day if it's like totally off, right? And like, I don't care how much you own it. If you have a bowl cut, you know, there's only so much you can own. You're like, "Guys, this ain't happening."

Sara Ferrer: But you see, at five everyone had a bowl cut. We've all been there. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: The image still, I mean, I have a photo of it, so it sticks with me as well. 

Sara Ferrer: Put it up as your LinkedIn picture. 

Serena Reynolds: Th- [00:41:00] this strangely ties in with the whole conversation we've had today. 

Sara Ferrer: It kinda does. What would you ask, Aleksandra, to our future guest?

Sara Ferrer: You have no idea who they are, what industry they work in, what their career is, or aspirations. Throw out a question, uh, to ask 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Oh, wow. Um 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah, we put you on the spot. Sorry. Public speaking, you're on the spot 

Serena Reynolds: It's okay. We have editing. We can cut out gaps. 

Sara Ferrer: Remember, Serena, when we asked Brianna a question, and she...

Sara Ferrer: We had a guest, and we asked her a question, and she was just so dumbfounded that she took, like, 15 minutes to think? Yeah. And, uh, so- So, so we- we're used to, we're used to giving our, our guests a minute or two to think, and it can be easy. Doesn't have to be a professional question. I mean, obviously we just gave you a very non, non-job-oriented question.

Aleksandra Plazinic: Do they feel sometimes that, uh, or maybe they can give an example [00:42:00] of when they faked through something that they didn't really feel like it? Like fake it till you make it. Do they do that? 

Sara Ferrer: Love it. An example of a fake it till you make it. Give us an example of a fake it till you make it time. That's a great question.

Sara Ferrer: It's a great question, 'cause I feel like it could be professional, it could be personal, it could be in school. What do you believe as... I know we're wrapping up, but, like, quickly, what do you believe in the fake it till you make it mentality? 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Yeah, yeah, I- I'm-- I don't hate it, actually. It works sometimes, but I, I, I talk about it in my book, but it's adapted, so it's not just like, okay, fake it till you make it and that you don't feel like it.

Aleksandra Plazinic: But I'm-- I believe that you have to step into a different role, so it's like acting. With that, I, I approve that. So fake it till you make it. Okay, I don't own it yet, but at that moment I can be, let's say, the most confident person ever because this is [00:43:00] what is true. I learned it from my, um, uh, childhood actor and she's, she shared that and she said like, "This is acting," like, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: Uh, when you believe this is true in this moment, and these are the true actors, right? Um, you're not, um... The, the fake ones are-- were trying, right, to, um, to overdo it, right? But here you just believe this is the truth in this moment, and that's it. So in that sense, I would love to, like, um, more women to use this fake, fake it till you make it.

Serena Reynolds: Okay. As, as we start wrapping up here, I have one more question for you. So public speaking is, is something that's just sounds awful to me. Uh, I speak too fast. I stumble over my own tongue. I... Anxiety and nerves get the better of me. Are there any techniques that you would prescribe to [00:44:00] me that could help- Help with that situation 

Sara Ferrer: Like in front of the mirror?

Sara Ferrer: Hello, Serena. Hello. 

Serena Reynolds: Well, in front of the mirror, I, it's only me judging myself and, and, you know, I, I can take or leave that. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: It's okay. I mean, first of all, it's okay to be nervous. Everybody's nervous, whether it's a positive or a negative aspect. Um, but before, right, before the, the speaking starts, we all feel nervous when the stakes are high, right?

Aleksandra Plazinic: It's, it's very, like, physiological. You, you feel it. It depends- 

Serena Reynolds: But some people can turn that into an advantage. I turn that into me falling flat on my face- ... as I walk on. I turn it into a clown act. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: So the first one, what you can do, you can always take a deep breath. So the, the trick is that your inhale is longer than your exhale, and you do it only three times.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So more than three times, actually, you're [00:45:00] avoiding to start speaking, and you're just in the loop of the, the practice. But we really underestimate, um, breathing because I, I forget as well sometimes. And, uh, before you start, you can take a deep breath or just breath, right, for, for yourself and then start speaking.

Aleksandra Plazinic: So remember that as, let's say, in the, the first 90 seconds routine with the body, right? So how do you project, uh, as well your voice? Uh, how do you look at your audience? You don't have to be fixated. Sometimes when you're fixated, uh, nervousness go in. So try to w- widen as well your, your sight so that it's more relaxed, but at the same time, right, that you, you feel the space around you.

Aleksandra Plazinic: I then teach women as well to, um, cut the ums, um, and so on, or not to pause. It's very normal, right, to pause, take a glass of water to think through 'cause I n- now with the social media, with everything is edited, we see the perfect [00:46:00] speakers without pauses, without ums. Sometimes for me, that's very artificial.

Aleksandra Plazinic: That's like an AI speaking, right, flawlessly. For me, okay, if you have um, or if you pause, that means you're thinking. That's, that's very normal. That's very authentic. 

Sara Ferrer: This is all great. It, it, it seems doable. It just seems like a... It just seems like practice. Like most things in life, it's practice. But practice can make perfect if you get Aleksandra's book.

Sara Ferrer: Tell our audience how they can get your book. Where are you showing, are, are you, are you doing seminars? Tell our listeners, at this point, they're like, "Okay, we're sold. We wanna speak better," where can they find out more about you? Where can they buy the book? And, and where can they just follow and see all the new and exciting updates from your journey?

Aleksandra Plazinic: So the book, uh, can be bought in Amazon, so The Fearless Female Speaker. Um, and it's delivered all over the world. It's already bestseller in some [00:47:00] countries in Europe, and it hit top 100 in the US, so I'm very happy with that. You can always find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active there. I reply to, to my messages.

Aleksandra Plazinic: And you can always, of course, visit my website at plazenic.com. Uh, so you can, uh, find out more about my- myself. You can, uh, see, uh, if you can as well download three steps, uh, which is a, a free guide, uh, into the, uh, public speaking, so what can help you immediately. And then for the full methods, you can find my book, uh, that has more than 40 different techniques and tools.

Sara Ferrer: Love it. This has been a very relevant and enlightening conversation. And you know what? If, if I take anything away from this, it's you don't have to overcomplicate it. Believe in yourself, critique within reason, and keep it moving, baby girl, 'cause life is short. You know, that's, that's, that's what I have, have, have kind of processed.

Sara Ferrer: So [00:48:00] thank you so much, Aleksandra. This has been incredibly helpful and enlightening. 

Aleksandra Plazinic: Thank you so much for having me. It was a very fun talk.