Sara Ferrer: [00:00:00] Welcome to Fearless and Flawed. Today, we're joined by Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine, executive coach, writer, and the woman behind Ladies Who Lunch. She holds a PhD in conflict analysis and resolution. She's coached leaders and politicians, and she is one of the best storytellers we've had in this chair. 

Serena Reynolds: Before the coaching, Liz was on the inside at Disney and at iHeartRadio.

Serena Reynolds: She took lessons from both and burrito-wrapped them into a practice that helps leaders handle conflict that most of us spend our lives avoiding. 

Sara Ferrer: And she started this in June of 2020, another COVID baby, and she'll tell you straight, without COVID, the company might not exist. She works mostly with women.

Sara Ferrer: She's not interested in selling you a course, and she has a particular gift for helping women put down the armor they carry into male-dominated rooms.

Serena Reynolds: I'm Serena. [00:01:00] I produce the podcasts and webinars that grow your business. 

Sara Ferrer: And I'm Sara, an email marketing pro here to convert clicks into cash. And together, Serena and I are two women in charge, digging into the fearless, the flawed, and the fabulous journeys of female founders rewriting the rules.

Serena Reynolds: Welcome to our show, Liz. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

Serena Reynolds: Welcome. So before any of the coaching, you were an employee at Disney and at iHeartRadio. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Mm-hmm. A cast member. Disney does not call their employees ca- They, they don't call their employees employees. They call them cast members. We put on a show. 

Serena Reynolds: You are a cast member at Disney.

Serena Reynolds: So what did you learn from these very two different machines about leadership, and what do you use today in your current, with your current clients? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Hmm. I'm a, I'm a positive person, but we'll start with a negative. So at iHeart, I learned, like, everything not to do in how you treat [00:02:00] people where you work.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: When I started there, so it was called Clear Channel Radio when I started there. So- When I started at Clear Channel, it was like a very family feel. The, like, regional director would go to people's baby showers and weddings, and it was just, like, the kind of place that was nice to work. And like, you could make a lot of money working there too, and so people were very motivated to stay.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: They felt like this was their career. And then the corporate structure changed, and they changed the commission structure overnight. So people that were making, you know, six figures and up were now making, like, half that in overnight. Can you imagine having your pay cut in that way, right? In the Washington, D.C.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: area where mortgages are, you know... Like, million-dollar homes are the norm, not the exception. And the way that people got treated was just as disposable, expendable. The, the days of having, like, leadership at your baby shower was over. I went [00:03:00] out drinking one night, and I, I don't drink anymore, and I, I had stopped drinking while I was there.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: That was, I, I like got sober while I was at that job and have stayed sober since. And I went out drinking one night, and like one of the regional directors was there, and he got absolutely shit-faced. And he was trying to pursue one of the, like, younger women that was kind of like my age. I was 22 at the time.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And I reme- he was just, like, totally blitzed. We were in this very posh area of D.C. And like the way I was raised, if somebody gets, like, really drunk, like you put them in a cab and you send them... Like, you take care of your friend, right? Like, that's what you're supposed to do. And I was very overweight at the time.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I was a chunky girl. I had very curly-- I still have very curly hair, but like I kinda didn't know what to do with it yet. I, like, didn't, I, I hadn't, I hadn't blossomed yet, and I was still, like, this very, very much still, like, an awkward teenager even though I was in my 20s, right? And so I'm, like, trying to put this guy into a cab, and he was really trying to get [00:04:00] up on this other girl.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And I was like, I thought I was being helpful. And he got super mad at me and, like, called me fat and all this stuff. It was just, like, a crappy culture to be in. And so, like, what I learned from that experience was really that, like, how you treat your people matters almost more than anything because they just had this revolving door going.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And when I had first started there, if someone left the company, an email would go out to the entire company saying, like, "So and so has left. We wish them the best in their future endeavors." And by the time I left, those emails didn't go out anymore because there was so many people just leaving the company.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And they just really viewed people as these disposable cogs as opposed to, like, talented people that needed to be developed, that are expensive to develop and, and need to be cultivated and cared for. And so what I learned there was, was how you treat your people matters almost more than, [00:05:00] like, what your product is.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: If you can hold onto talent and maintain a staff where people really know what they're doing, then the rest of it will kind of take care of itself. With Disney, gosh, I think the big thing that I learned from Disney was know what you're actually selling. Like, Disney is not selling stand on a hot pavement for hours and hours with screaming children so that you can ride in a fiberglass elephant spinning through the air, right?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, that's not what they're selling. They're selling the promise of family memories. They're selling the, like, the promise of magic. Like, if you come here, you will have an experience that takes you outside of your every day and, like, gives you an experience to feel like more than yourself, and to have these kind of memories with your family that'll last generations.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, that's what they're selling. They're not selling the actual, like, product that they have to offer, which is, like, a very hot amusement park. That's what they're really... Like, pur- you're purchasing a, a [00:06:00] ticket to a hot amusement park, but that's not what they sell. And so learning how to package and message in such a way that people are like, "Oh, okay.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, this is something that I really understand the value of," that's what I learned from Disney more than anything else. 

Sara Ferrer: It sounds like a poor experience, though. I mean, uh, so iHeartRadio, not the vibe. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You know, I have no idea what it's like over there now. Like, no clue whatsoever. But I'll say this, like, like, when we talk about, like, conflict theory, right?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Conflict analysis and resolution. When you talk about conflict theory, you talk about in-groups and out-groups. Like, how do we have the formation of different groups that end up in conflict with one another? Yeah. And one of the, like, best ways to form a group, like a cohesive group, is to have an external conflict.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so the people that I worked with, who were, like, my fellow employees there, this is... You know, we're 20 years in the future now, we're still friends. Like, I could call up any one of these people and be like, "I need a kidney. I was just diagnosed with kidney failure. Would you give me [00:07:00] a kidney?" I have no doubt any one of them would be like, "Yeah, let me sign up to be a donor."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Right? Like, these... You know, even though we, we don't talk on a daily basis, these aren't, like, best friends that I would, like, call up and have a drink, but these are people that I absolutely, like, unshakably, no question, I know are in my corner. 

Sara Ferrer: That's really interesting, because you tell a story like that, right?

Sara Ferrer: And many of us would, would kind of file that under, like, "Let's forget about it. That sucked. Like, I learned nothing from it except the corporate world sucks." Right? Like, a lot of us would take something out of that and almost be bitter or be, feel, feel like, you know, like, like we, we are up a, up a creek with, with the industry and just in general, maybe just be a bit kinda jaded to the whole thing.

Sara Ferrer: But it sounds like you ex- in your work now, that actually is a perfect experience to have, because you kinda have seen, I'm imagining Disney is different. Disney is different. [00:08:00] I'm imagining. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. 

Sara Ferrer: Okay. So I would imagine, like, you had, you had the bad, you ha- or w- what could be perceived as, like, a bad experience, right?

Sara Ferrer: Even though you've learned from it, but, like, it's a bad experience. That guy was a douche. He was a dick, and then you went to Disney, and I'm imagining, what? Are we all singing Kumbaya while we're in outfits? What are we doing? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. It wa- so I was at Disney prior to iHeartRadio. So I, I was a cast member at Disney on site with their college program.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I was a lifeguard sitting around in my lifeguard uniform singing It's a Small World. We don't sing Kumbaya. No, so I, so I was on site with Disney as a lifeguard, and then I went into their marketing department for the college program. So I was going to colleges in the Maryland and DC region and marketing the college program, and you should sign up for it, and learning marketing through that lens, through the, like, Disney magic lens.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You know, as much as, as much as iHeart was such a, like- slimy corporate experience. It all, like I learned [00:09:00] so much from that about like having my own back, 'cause I got recruited to ABC Radio. They were gonna give me a jo- I, I was done. Like almost everyone that I knew there was like, "Oh my God, get me out."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And ABC Radio, which is Disney, owned by Disney, was like, "Oh, you can come and work here and do the exact same job, be in our advertising department." I was like, "Sweet, that sounds great." And then Clear Channel threatened to enforce their non-compete. They were like, "No, you can't go to radio anywhere else for six months.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like go fuck yourself." And ABC decided like, "We, we can't, we can't like back you on this. We're not gonna go to court over this on your behalf." But they sent me the most beautiful bouquet of flowers and like the manager that wanted to hire me called me and she's like, "We're sorry. We think the world of you."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: But I, like I had no job. I had an apartment. I was like 23 years old at that point and I was like, "Well shit, what do I do?" But I like leaned on people. I leaned on my network. I had somebody... I'm in a 12-step program. I had [00:10:00] somebody in my program be like, "Hey, I work for a magazine in advertising, like come talk to my manager."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And I was unemployed for like 48 hours. I got hired at that magazine and went and did it and I did advertising. I did some modeling while I was there, and it was like a super good experience. And so like if you're listening to this and you're in limbo, just like continue to advocate yourself for yourself and know that you're awesome and other people will see that too.

Serena Reynolds: I've just found in the past just by verbalizing that you're having problems, people do step up. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Mm-hmm. 

Serena Reynolds: Um, I think it's when you don't, when, when you're, when you, I don't know, you kind of hide it, then how, how can anybody suggest that there is a job for you or that they can make an introduction if they don't know you're looking?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. Shame makes us victims 

Sara Ferrer: And where d- where does, so in, in this story, 'cause I know there's a PhD in conflict analysis and resolution, so where, how do we go from where we are at 23 to the [00:11:00] PhD? Like, you're working in advertising and marketing, because that, that's quite a, a leap now. Like, what, is there a moment where you go, "Aha, this is what I'm meant to do"?

Sara Ferrer: Does someone suggest, "Hey, you have a knack for, you know, this thing"? How do you get there? 'Cause it's, it's such an interesting- 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. So, so I, so I was sexually assaulted when I was 15, and it, like, took a lot out of me. I ended up gaining about 100 pounds after that to, like, buffer myself from having a body and having people hit on me and stuff.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so I had joined a 12-step program, lost all of that weight, and, like, the same weekend that I, like, was handed my size four jeans, like, "Congratulations, you're pretty now," I had a mentor hit on me, and it was in a, like, way that just made me feel like he was, like, trying to take ownership of me, and just, like, it was gross.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: We were at a party, and he kind of, like, wielded me around the room as if I was, [00:12:00] like, his plus one, which I wasn't. He had a partner, and I, I had a partner, and it was just, ugh, it was a gross experience. And so I, like, go home and just completely fall apart in my partner's arms. I was like, "Oh, my God, blah, blah, blah, blah, this is awful."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And this is not, not my husband, but, you know, the person I was with at the time. And I spent about two weeks really just, like, processing the fact that I had gained all of this weight because I didn't wanna be visible, and I didn't wanna have a body, and I didn't want male attention, and, like, how much this experience had cost me.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And I, I went to work at the magazine that I had talked about getting hired at, walked into my office, and my manager took one look at me and said, "I don't need to know what's wrong with you, but you can't be here. You have to go home." Sent me home for two weeks. I did a bunch of therapy. He was an amazing boss.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And went back to work after that two weeks and doing therapy, like, three times a week and walking around museums and just crying and [00:13:00] kinda, like, getting my feet underneath myself. And I was, like, back in my office. There's a big fancy Mac computer with all these ad layouts on it, and I was just like, "What the hell am I doing here?"

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, "What am I doing with my life? This isn't-" Like, this doesn't matter to me. I don't have any skin in this game. And I thought, well, if I can get companies to give me money on the premise that buying advertising will make them more money, I bet I can get people to give women's organizations money on the premise that it will change the world.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I bet I could do that. Um, and so I started a foundation. Or no, that's not true. I started a consulting firm that works with foundations, and so I was helping women nonprofits, women-focused nonprofits raise money. So all of the stuff that I'd been doing in sales for radio and for magazines, I was just doing now, but in fundraising and [00:14:00] development.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And the person I was with at the time, who's my, my son's father, said to me, "You know, you gotta hunt with a bigger gun. Nobody's gonna take you seriously." He said, "You've got everything it takes to run for Congress. Like, you can do whatever you want, but not with just an undergrad degree. Like, go to law school or go get a PhD.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Pick one." And he was in law school, and I thought, "Well, we have that covered." So I went and got a PhD. 

Sara Ferrer: What a st- Can I just also say, I think this is very important because up to this point I have heard, like, there have been some, some really undesirable male characters in your life up to this point from these stories.

Sara Ferrer: But it's also very refreshing to hear that it sounds like your partner at the time, who was a male, was also very supportive. And so I think it's really imp- You know, what I'm hearing is, like, you found yourself in these situations that, that sucked. I don't know how else to say it. It sucked, and you, you kind of looked outwards to who your community was, and that could be a variety of different [00:15:00] people, the 12-step program, uh, coworkers, partners.

Sara Ferrer: But I really appreciate at this point how like, you know, people can make suggestions and people can, can give you advice, and people can say, "Hunt with a bigger gun," but you do it. You take the advice. You, you, you... That to me is the most impressive thing because after just hearing a snippet, you know, consolidating those experiences into two minutes, holy shit, some people don't ever leave their bed after that happens.

Sara Ferrer: But you continued going. You get the PhD in conflict analysis and resolution, which is a very specific thing. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a cool field. I can tell you about the field if you want. 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. How, like how did you come about it? 'Cause like when Serena and I were chatting during our pre-chat, I'm like, "I've never heard of that field," but o- obviously it exists for a reason.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Here's why it exists. So after World War I, the entire academic community came together, sociologists, psychologists, all, all the people came together and they said, "Well, that [00:16:00] went really poorly. How do we make sure that doesn't happen again?" And so they created the field of international affairs, and they said, "Okay, now we've got it.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Now we'll just study how to get along better, and that'll never happen again." And after World War II, the academic community came together again and they said, "Well, that didn't work. What are we missing?" And then I amended the first part. I said, you know, sociologists and psychologists and all them came together.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: That's not true. Political scientists, all the kind of like hard sciences of the, the academic sphere came together and said, "How do we better work together so that that doesn't happen?" And then after World War II, they said there's these human elements that were missing, and so sociologists and psychologists and anthropologists then came into the mix and created the field of conflict analysis and resolution under the like- auspicious of if we can really [00:17:00] study human behavior and really study politics and how people interact with each other and how large scale systems of power operate, then this won't happen again.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And obviously we continue to have armed conflict, we continue to have conflict, but that's where the field of conflict analysis and resolution came from. So it's, it's a very broad field. I have colleagues from my program that are the lead, like foremost thinkers on corporate social responsibility in the aftermath of the Holocaust and helping companies take responsibility for their d- roles in different mass atrocities.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I have people that are in sports diplomacy. I have people that teach. I've got a colleague and a dear friend of mine in Cambodia who's a professor, right? Like, it's, it's kinda all over the map. But what I've done with that is I've taken my experiences in marketing and advertising, my experiences in political fundraising and running political [00:18:00] nonprofits, and rolled that into my work studying leaders and working with leaders.

Serena Reynolds: So with all my time as working in marketing and advertising W- it always fascinates me how we think people behave one way and they absolutely do not. How the complete opposite can be true and, and, you know, just, just, just to go off on a slight, tiny little tangent, 'cause we've hit on this topic a number of times on Fearless and Flawed, is how AI is very, very, like, it's right.

Serena Reynolds: You know, it has this one narrow little funnel. But how much of that are we gonna miss from the human element, the, the side where th- where people don't behave in the way that we perceive they should or, or would like? So yeah. Okay, sorry. This is, this is a subject that really fascinates me is, is how, is how people, how [00:19:00] that whole thing about how people really do behave when you, when you put them in different situations and stuff.

Serena Reynolds: So I'm completely bought into this. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Well, I think people are motivated primarily by a desire to stay safe, right? It's why we don't leave our bed after things that are scary happen, right? Like, we have a deep-seated biological drive to survive. And so when people act out of that, you know, act out of, like, what's behaving nicely or whatever, what it's generally coming from is, uh, there's a pre- uh, there's a perceived threat to my safety, and I have to neutralize whatever that threat is by whatever means necessary so I can continue to have the mental stability of, "I know that things are going to continue to be okay for me."

Sara Ferrer: Hmm. That makes sense. And so then you're like... You're work- you're, you're working on your PhD. Just getting back to the timeline, 'cause it all eventually culminates to COVID [00:20:00] and then June of 2020, and you decide to s- you know, to now start the business. And, like, just walk us through that, where it's like, "Hey, okay, I'm gonna go to my PhD.

Sara Ferrer: I'm gonna study my, for my PhD." You get it, conflict resolution analysis, great. Um, there's a... I believe there w- the focus was on organizational development trauma and nonprofit leadership. Perfect. And now you're like, "Now I'm just gonna, like, do my own thing and, and, and recruit my own cl-" Like, how does that work?

Sara Ferrer: How do you go from that leap of like, "Now I have the PhD. Now I'm working in a different industry. I'm using my marketing brain, but now I'm also gonna be entrepreneur"? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You know, I, so this is the third company I've owned. Like, this is not my first go round, right? Like, when I started my consulting firm to raise money for nonprofits, like, that was as a company.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I was, like, that was my... I started my first company when I was 24. When I finished my PhD and was working in-house at a law firm, I was [00:21:00] coaching. I was a, a, an divorce coach there, and I was also doing their sales and marketing. Um, so I was in-house doing both coaching and sales and marketing, and during that time founded a tech company with the owner of that law firm and two other people in the law firm.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: So that was my second company, and then this is my third. So entrepreneurship's been a part of my story for a very long time. Did 

Serena Reynolds: you say from 24? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Since I was 24, yeah. So, and I'll be 43 here in, like, five weeks. So it's, it's been a w- uh, 21 years of, of entrepreneurial adventures. So I'm, I'm coaching at the law firm.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Pandemic starts, and my kid, my kindergartner now has no school going on, and he needed, he needed me. He needed me so much, and, like, I remember I took a Zoom call in my bedroom and he was out in the living room, and he decided to put... Like, you [00:22:00] know, the win- the, the window blinds, how they have that little stick that you, like, wind and it opens the blinds more or less?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: He had taken this off of the window and put on a superhero cape, which was like a towel around his neck or something, and put this thing in his mouth for God knows why, jumped up on a kitchen counter and flew, right? He, like, flew like a superhero off of this. So I'm in the bedroom, right? I'm, like, 20 feet away from this kid, but there was a wall in between where we were, and he had jumped off of this very high, like, countertop level chair, and stick thing had gone into his cheek, and, you know, uh, he's crying, so I heard him obviously.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I rushed, we rushed to the ER and they, like, can't put stitches in it 'cause it's in a part of your body that they, like, don't stitch up unless there's, like, an actual hole through your cheek. I was just like, "I I, I can't be on a Zoom call and [00:23:00] have this child in the house. Like, I, I... Like, that's just not physically possible.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: But I was, like, wading my way through it. You know, I'm one of a gazillion parents trying to figure this out. It's gonna be okay. But at that point, I, I had already had this dream of living on a boat. I'd always wanted to live on a boat, and this moment felt really like maybe this is the right time. There's no, like, commuting right now.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: There's no school right now. My apartment was very expensive. Like, maybe this is the time that I move onto a boat. And my, my former partner that we've talked about as being very supportive is my son's dad, and I called him and his wife and I said, "You know, I, I think this might be my moment to do this," and they were very supportive and they said, "Yeah, you've wanted to do this for a long time."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so me and my kid move onto a boat. And there was a day where I was getting him and I... We had two dogs, so I'm getting my dogs and my son off the boat to go somewhere. I forget where we were going. And he falls off [00:24:00] the boat, and he falls in between, like, where our, the edge of our boat and the dock is, so maybe, like, a 15-inch, like, opening.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And he's in kindergarten. He was not a good swimmer at that point. I don't even know if he could swim at that point. And he falls off, and had I not been right there, he would've drowned. He would've been under the boat, and I would've been looking all around thinking that he had wandered off to play, and he would've been under the boat and I would've never known.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And that, that happened that day, and the next day I quit my job. I was like, there's no way that I can... Like, like, there, there... I just can't. Like, there's not enough of me to supervise an active five-year-old and do this. And so I signed up to be a tutor online for kids learning English, and I hired a student who was getting her education degree at the University of Maryland.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I bought, what's it called? A homeschool curriculum for her to do with him. And so [00:25:00] she nannied him and tutored him, like, 20 hours a week while I worked. And my goal was to simply replace the income that I had coaching at the law firm, and if I needed to, I would supplement it with this, like, online teaching gig.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And instead of sur- like, instead of just replacing my income, I tripled it in the first month. And I was like, "Oh, okay. So this is gonna work out fine." And it has. Like, I've had to supplement here and there with little bits of odd jobs, but, like, as a, like, general rule, I have made a full-time income as a coach since that June of 2020 moment when I was like, my kid fell off the boat, and, like, under no circum- Like, I'm sorry.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I just, I can't. Like, as m- A- And I loved my job at the law firm. It's, was an incredible job. I had an incredible boss, and it was very, very hard to leave. But You know, you do what you got to for your kid. 

Sara Ferrer: That is a wild story. [00:26:00] Also, can I just say, we do pre-chats with all of our, all of our guests The stories that you have just out of your back pocket, 'cause sometimes we chat and it's like, oh, we kinda heard a little bit of this.

Sara Ferrer: The boat, the falling, the like, and it, it like... We're all mothers here, like that feeling when you said, "If I wasn't there," I mean, that shook me to my core. "If I wasn't there, I would've thought he just ran o-" Like, that is so relatable. Oh, where'd he go again? But you realize, okay, I gotta do this. If at nothing else, I just gotta make what I'm making you triple your income.

Sara Ferrer: How? Who, uh, who are your clients? What's your pitch? What, like what is like the ideal client look like? What is the ideal, like what does the end product look like when someone comes to you, "Hey, I want this." "Okay, I can guarantee you this," or, "This is what I'll provide for you." Just walk our listeners through like what exactly is a transaction there?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. What's interesting, so, so that June I was like, "Ah, I like have to replace [00:27:00] this income," right? And like, so that was June 2020. January 2021, six months later, I made $50,000, right, in one month. And so like my company scaled very, very, very quickly. That first month what I did was I called every single person I had ever interacted with in my entire life and I said, "This is what I'm doing now.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Do you know of anyone that could use a good divorce coach?" And that was how that took off, was I just called every single person I know. Everybody knows somebody that's going through a divorce, right? Every single person we can think of, and be like, "Oh yeah, like my sister's nephew's dog walker is going through a divorce right now.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, let me see if they need somebody," right? And so it took off, but very quickly I learned that as much as I am passionate about divorce coaching, and I do, I continue to this day to do couples conflict resolution coaching. So I would... If a couple is like struggling in marital counseling, right, and they're like not really getting what they need, they'll come to me and they'll be like, "We need something like much more directive around moving forward versus like [00:28:00] analyzing and talking about our feelings.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, what are we gonna do to move this forward?" So I do work with couples still, but I do very little actual like divorce coaching these days. So I had three different clients come to me, bing, bang, boom, in a row, women going through divorce, and they couldn't go get traditional jobs because they had kids at home.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And they're like, "I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna get alimony. I have to, like, I have to have a job. How do I do this?" And I was like, "Oh, well entrepreneurship's been a part of my journey for a long time." I was like, "Well, what are you passionate about? What do you like to do? What are you really smart at?"

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Blah, blah, blah. And we created companies for these three women back to back to back. I was like, "Oh, I think I'm supposed to be helping people start businesses. Like, I think that that's really what this is about." And so lumping all of my experiences researching women leaders and working on companies and building companies and scaling companies for other people and advertising and all of that, I mushed everything together into working with female leaders who are right at the precipice of [00:29:00] having something go in a really good way, not in a blow up and in a bad way.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Um, so working with people that are really right at the precipice of something tipping into the next level, but are either feeling like, "Oh my God, how do I make that happen?" Or, "Who do I re- who do I think I am?" Like, "Oh, too big for my own britches," that sort of feeling. Or like, "What are the actual mechanics of doing this?"

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, I don't... Like, like, "How do I make this happen? I can see the vision, but I don't know how to operationalize it." So people come to me when they're in a moment of like, "I can see the, I can see what's next, but don't know how to get there," or, "I don't want to let myself get there because it's too scary." Um, they come to me, we work on all the psychobabble side of why it's hard and scary to get there.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: We work on all the strategy side of what to actually do moment to moment, and they flourish, and they create companies that are really sustainable and do incredible work in the world, and they make good money, and they spend more time with their kids, and they work less, [00:30:00] um, and life is good. 

Serena Reynolds: So, so one of the things we've noticed whilst doing Fearlessly Flawed is how many women are accidental entrepreneurs, where similar to, similar to you, similar to me, where something's happened, um, and that's encouraged them to start their job, to, to start their entrepreneurship.

Serena Reynolds: That's something we've noticed. But also the The, the feeling that, um, we're not worthy, that we're not good enough, that, you know, or we don't charge enough because we, we don't have the power, we don't feel as though we have the power to charge enough or, or whatever our, our own personal issues are that... I mean, they're really common with women, I, I feel, um, the women we've spoken to.

Serena Reynolds: So, um, what are the, some of the commonalities that you see, and how, how do you advise around these commonalities? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah, I think the big one that I see [00:31:00] specifically with women versus my male clients who, who look a little bit different, is that they're afraid of what other people are going to think if they pursue what they really want to do, right?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, what are, like, the blowback that other people are gonna have, or people are gonna think they're too big for their britches, or what will their kids think if they take more time doing something else. Um, so there's really fear around somebody else is going to have a strong opinion about what I'm doing, and it's going to, in some way, cause pain, cause me pain, cause my family pain.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: There's going to be some sort of negative consequence based off somebody else thinking that this is the wrong path for me. So that's the big one that I see with women. And in general, what I, what I do is I help them connect back into who they are, right? 'Cause at the end of the day, it, it's your opinion that matters.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You're the person that's gonna have to be alone, you know, in the hospice bed by [00:32:00] yourself, in your own head at the end of the day, thinking about, like, these are the things that I did and these are the things that I didn't do. Um, and so helping women be more courageous in the face of potential criticism is a huge part of my work.

Serena Reynolds: I, I mean, really, when you think about it, well, going back right to the, the very first story that you were telling us about being called, called fat because you were trying to help out in a situation, it's not really surprising that us women kind of default to that fear of being judged. More of a general statement there than a question, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I can definitely link back my issues, my personal issues, um, to certain situations and things that have happened that I, you know, that But only when I've thought back to it.

Serena Reynolds: But I, so I can certainly understand why, um, women do struggle with these things. 

Sara Ferrer: And was this a, was this like a driving force? [00:33:00] Because I know I want you to talk a little bit about the Ladies Who Lunch. Was this like maybe a driving force about community, connection? Like what, what... Explain to the audience what that is, because it sounds like from one-on with your clients, like you're building strategies, but you're also, I mean, you're coaching them in many ways, not just business, but you mentioned like one of the hiccups that women have.

Sara Ferrer: That feels like a very personal hiccup. Like, "Hey, I'm scared of what other people think about me." That's not necessarily a, a easy business box to check. You have to be like, "Okay, well, like fuck other people. Okay, well, like what, what does that look like? I care so much about what Susie Q's gotta say." So you're kind of doing a whole, uh, uh, um, you're wearing many different hats in your day-to-day.

Sara Ferrer: Ladies Who Lunch came from where? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna answer that question after I talk a little bit to your preamble to the question. So most of what I do is on the kind of, my husband calls it the psychobabble side of things, right? Much less the strategy side of things. You can go hire a [00:34:00] business coach that can teach you how to do, like, clicks, like clicks to cash, things like that.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You can go hire a business coach to teach you how to build a funnel. You can hire a business coach to teach you how to structure an S corp. Like, I am not the person to come to to teach you that. I am the person to come to when you are like, "Holy fucking balls, I was built to be so much bigger than I am, and I continue to shy away from my real purpose because I'm really, really scared of what might happen if I go all out for my dreams."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, that's who, that's who I am. I'm that girl. And so when people work with me, it's gen- generally, I'm afraid that the thing that I'm about to do goes against how I was raised, specifically my parents' thinking. Oftentimes with women, it's their mom. Oftentimes with men, it's their dad. The mean girl in your head, I've yet to meet a female who the mean, like critical voice in their head did not sound a whole lot like their mom.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Like, that is just kind of genetically how we [00:35:00] roll. I'm convinced it's biological because I've now worked with enough women where I've heard them say, "Oh God, that sounds like my mom's voice in my head." Right? Where we just, we have this very real drive to stay in alignment with what our core caregivers taught us was the right way to do things.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so if you want to scale a project, whether it's a nonprofit or an initiative at your kid's school or a company, if you wanna scale a project and it's going to require you being someone different than who you were raised to be, you're gonna have an existential crisis at some point, and I'm the person that you see to help you work through that.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Um, so Ladies Who Lunch, Ladies Who Lunch is a women's networking group that I started here on Maryland's Eastern Shore, where I live. And I really started it because I wanted some more in-person friends that I had stuff in common with. I'm, I'm in recovery. I'm in a 12-step program, and I have been for a very long time, and I had a [00:36:00] relapse five years ago today.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Today's the anniversary As we're recording today. So I had a, I had a relapse five years ago today, and I got treatment after that, and that was awful period of time in my life, just horrible, and horrible for my son. But I came out of that and both of them-- I was very, very dedicated to making close friends in program.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And my parents both saw it, and they felt like I was being too insular, and they said to me, each of them separately said to me, like, "You have to be bigger than your diagnosis." Like, "You have to have friends beyond just the people in your recovery community." And now, like, I've, I've been very serious and intentional about my, my where I fit in this community since that relapse.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And, and I s- now five years out, I see the wisdom of that [00:37:00] advice that my parents have, not just for my own identity, but I've had a lot of people relapse and go out, and, like, that's been a heartbreaking experience to have, like, close friends that I rely on, one of whom I was, like, on her board as a nonprofit, you know, board member and, and she went out, and it was just heartbreaking and excruciating.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: So anyway, so my parents were both like, "You gotta make friends just beyond this, like, group of people here." And when I came to the Eastern Shore, I didn't know anybody, and I, I met some friends by creating a Facebook group for other single parents, and that's where I met my husband. And then moved out to the town that he's lived in his whole life, and I just wanted some more people.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so I put up something in all the community groups and Facebook community groups, and I said, "You know, I'm looking for other women who own businesses or are in leadership, and let's all go out to lunch on Friday at this restaurant." [00:38:00] And six people showed up, and it was great. And then the next time, 15 people showed up, and then the next time, 35 people showed up.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And today, today will be the fifth or sixth one, and there's 23 people registered, so it should be a good time. But I really did... For those of you who are in marketing or wanna market your company, creating Facebook groups are, are the way to go. I got my husband by creating a Facebook

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: group and met him in there, so it's possible. 

Sara Ferrer: Yes. Your husband and, and your lunch dates with these ladies who lunch. Like, you checked off a social and personal box all in one Facebook post. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Uh, well, the, different groups, different groups. I, I created a... Like, the, the real story, you want the salacious version of the story or the- 

Sara Ferrer: Sure.

Sara Ferrer: Why not? Okay. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: So, so the day before I moved out here to the area I live on, I was moving to an island, and, um, I, I got dumped by this, this nice guy that I was dating. But we, we'd been together for, like, eight weeks, and it just [00:39:00] wasn't going anywhere. It was one of those things where, like, both parties were like, "This isn't really gonna take off into anything, is it?"

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And, and he pulled the plug. And I, like, like getting all ready to move to my new house in my new town, and I'm like, "Damn it. I'm not gonna get laid. I don't know anybody." And so, so I was like, "Well, if I can create funnels for my company using Facebook groups- ... certainly I can do this for my personal life."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so I created, I created this group called the name of the island, Kickass Singles, and I just like started posting it in different places and like 200 people jumped it in the first couple of days, and I was like, "This is great." And so I was just like, "We're gonna have a social at this bar. We're gonna go do th- th- this thing," and I put up something saying, you know, "I have my son this weekend.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Does anyone wanna go do something?" And this, this cute boy responded and he's like, "Hey, I'll go walk around Airport Day with you." And I was like, "Oh, [00:40:00] another mom already said she'd go to the beach with us, but thanks." Uh, but then me and this cute boy continued to, to talk, and then we went out a month later, and now we've been married for almost a year.

Sara Ferrer: I love the story. You used your expertise. Hey, I know how to like, uh, create funnels and like, you know, uh, uh, create, you know, um, pro- you know, promote myself within, I don't know, this, this certain realm or industry. Why not do it for yourself? I love that story, 'cause so many times it's like, it's hard to put on the social hat when it's like, well, just do the same fucking thing.

Sara Ferrer: You're used to, you know, p- pop your chest out, say, "Hey, I'm new. I'm single. Who wants to meet up?" And that sweet boy is now your husband for how long? How long have you been married for? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: We got married in December. 

Sara Ferrer: Fantastic, and you've been together for how, over how many years? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Uh, more than four years.

Sara Ferrer: Fantastic. I love this story. You were brand new, and you just reeled him in with a sweet Facebook post, "Hey, let's hang out." [00:41:00] 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah. Well, he's a slut too, so that helped. 

Serena Reynolds: Hey, look, I'm, I'm, I'm hearing fearless here, seriously. No, but I found it- You're fearless ... uh- I,

Serena Reynolds: I would've been hiding in a corner going, "Oh no, don't look at me. No." 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: No, it wa- it, like that group was so great, 'cause I, I met friends in it, and true story, so that woman that went to the beach with me, she had gone on a couple of dates with my husband, right? It's, this is a small area, right? There's only like 50,000 people or so living within like wide span of area.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: So she had gone on a couple of dates with my husband. And when he and I were like first starting to date and I was like really falling for him, but he was already on board and I was like, "I don't know. I've like gone through a divorce," and I was just like having a whole freak out about it. I texted her and I was like, "Were there any red flags?"

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And she was like, "Nope. He's a great guy. It just didn't click for us." And like, I like went for it and, and I'm so glad I did [00:42:00] 

Sara Ferrer: Bravo. Bravo. Like, that's-- it, it sounds like up until this point, you know, a lot of, a lot of the experiences you've had, like, you've really taken the bull by the horns a lot and said, "Hey, this isn't working.

Sara Ferrer: I gotta do this. Hey, this isn't working. I gotta do this." And it sounds like you've, you've kind of r- you know, rode the wave. Sometimes this works, sometimes it hasn't. And so at this part of the, of the show, what we like to do... And it sounds like actually you're the perfect candidate for this. 

Serena Reynolds: Oh, it, it sounds like this, this question is completely irrelevant.

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. It's absolutely- Totally. Rightful. Because it's usually 

Serena Reynolds: sometimes people- Our whole conversation has been 

Sara Ferrer: this. So, so Serena, take the lead. We like to ask a, a surprise question or a fun question from a previous guest, but Serena will take the... It feels like Liz is totally prepared for whatever the fuck we throw at her.

Serena Reynolds: Now I'm, now I'm like, "Okay, where is this going?" 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Okay. 

Serena Reynolds: So our last guest is Etinosa, and she left [00:43:00] you a question, um, at the end of her interview, and her question was: What have you learnt from your greatest failure? I mean, you just literally bounce straight back in there. It's like nothing holds you back.

Serena Reynolds: It's like something's gone wrong, I'm just going to do this. I'm just gonna move on 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I'm like trying to think what I would define as my greatest fail- I, I guess my greatest failure would be picking up drugs again. Oh, what have I learned? Don't do drugs. Like, don't do drugs. Solid. Yeah, so I, so I have had periods of time where I've been ver- it was, I was addicted to Xanax and I put that substance down in 2019.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: But then I wa- I was dating a boy and, and that boy got diagnosed with cancer, and he was using medical marijuana to manage some of his symptoms. And I was listening to folks like him who really believed [00:44:00] in medical marijuana's ability to do things like reduce anxiety, and I was living on a boat with my child, and I was the primary caregiver for a partner who had terminal cancer, and I was running a company, and, and, and, and I had a lot of anxiety.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so I, um, I like told my AA sponsor that I was going to use. I, you know, I was like, "This is medical marijuana and it's different, and like this is gonna be a way to help manage my anxiety." And I was like FaceTiming with her outside of the dispensary where I was gonna buy this product. And she said like, "I hope you don't do this, but if you do, like there's always a seat here for you and like you're always welcome."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Um, and I, I used and I had told the, the guy that I was with, I had said, you know, "I'm never gonna use this around my kids." And like, and I'd put like a couple of disclaimers of like, I will never [00:45:00] do X and Y and Z. And that first night I used it while, while I had my son. Like he, you know, my kid didn't see me use it, but like I, like me and this boyfriend Uh, it, it makes it sound like tawdry.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: He, like, we, you know, we lived together. Like, he was very much, like, a committed partner. He wasn't just, like, some boyfriend hanging around the mall and, like, occasionally I'd pick him up for dinner or something. But we... You know, I, I smoked while I had my kid, and, like, I had said, like, "I'm never gonna do this," and it was...

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I, I did it the exact first night. And I think, like, the big lesson that I learned, God, there's a lot. Like, one, like, surround yourself with people who have what you want. Like, I didn't wanna use drugs, but I was surrounding myself with people that were using drugs. And, like, for as much as they were, like, good drugs and, like, for the right reason, they're, you know, they're still drugs, and if you're a drug addict, you probably shouldn't use drugs.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And then [00:46:00] the other big lesson I learned was just, like, being willing to be humble. Like, you know, the day after things, like, really, really fell apart, so five years ago today, August 1st, 2021, like, I called and I got on the phone, and I called, like, all these treatment centers, and I went to the hospital, and I got help, and it, like, was not fun in any way, shape, or form.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: It was, like, very, very humiliating. Um, very humiliating. I had to take a leave of absence from my company. Like, it was, it was miserable. So, like, the big thing, like, surround yourself with people who have lives that you want, 'cause I surrounded myself with people, I surrounded myself with people who were using, and as a result, I lost almost everything in my life.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Um, and I've gotten all of it back and then some, but it's not been a short road, and my kid will, my kid will carry the scars of this for the rest of his life 

Serena Reynolds: So I, I can honestly say your bravery, you're [00:47:00] completely fearless, and the fact that you talk about these things so openly is just so refreshing 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You know, I gotta say, like, it's, it, God, I'm not, like, when I think about how hurt my kid could have gotten, like, some of the times that we were on the boat and, like, some of the poor judgment calls I made when I was using medical marijuana, like, the other night I, I was at my mom's house.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: We were spending the night 'cause we were gonna go do, like, a fun summer activity the next day, and my son was sleeping in the guest bedroom with me. And apparently I pushed him out of the bed, which is something my husband has complained about, and now I have two users to explain to me that I am indeed the common problem.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Um, so I, like, wake up and my kid's not in the bed with me, and I, like, have that, like, moment panic, and I, like, look at the floor and he's, like, he's almost 13. He's as big as I am. He can pick me up. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, my poor sweet baby is on the floor. Like, what did I do to this little itty baby," right?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And he's, like, this huge child, right? [00:48:00] Wears my shoes all the time. It's crazy. And I just, like, look at him and I have these moments of, like, fear, just like, like, like retroactive fear well up of like, oh my God, X, Y, and Z could have happened to him because of my poor judgment, right? And like, that is not a moment of fearlessness for me.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: That is just, like, profound, like, terror mixed with gratitude. 

Serena Reynolds: But owning it is fearless- Mm ... and that's, that's the difference to- 

Sara Ferrer: Hundred percent 

Serena Reynolds: Yeah. 

Sara Ferrer: Putting it out there and owning it. And what would you ask... Now you don't know who our next guest is. That's kind of the thing. You don't know what industry they work in, no idea what their name is, their profile, nothing.

Sara Ferrer: What question would you ask them? And it, it can be relating to anything personal, professional, uh, what's your preferred ice cream flavor? I mean, it doesn't have to be deep, but it can. You decide. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Oh, what haircut did you have [00:49:00] along the path of life that you were the most embarrassed or disappointed in, and why?

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Oh my God, I love that. 

Sara Ferrer: That's great. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You know, 

Sara Ferrer: can I just tell you, Liz, um, we ask that question of course to every guest, and every guest naturally takes a second, maybe a minute or two to think about it. And, and I have been, we've been doing this now for what? Almost two years, and I always say, "Hey, it doesn't have to be a deep question if you don't want it to be.

Sara Ferrer: It doesn't have to be about failure or how to be more efficient." And I have been waiting Almost two years for someone to take the bait and just ask a fun goddamn question. You know, that is, like, so no strings attached, and this finally, two years in, I get the, "What haircut did you have that you're the most embar-" Thank you.

Serena Reynolds: Thank you. The, and I w- Thank you. And to add to that, there's been no editing here. She went straight in with that question as though she's been sitting on it, and we, we didn't [00:50:00] prep her. 

Sara Ferrer: Sitting on it. Like, like, waiting. You know 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: what? So I just had these stickers made, right? You both are marketers. I decided in addition to business cards, I'm gonna give out stickers, and they say, "Messy hair, big dreams."

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: They're so cute, and then they've got my little website on it, and some people have been like, "Well, are you a hairdresser?" And I'm like, "No, I just, like... This, my hair doesn't even look like it's a..." Like, like, I have- 

Sara Ferrer: She's showing us her hair She's showing us her lovely- 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I have- ... bun taken 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: down. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I mean, but this isn't even it.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: It's like I have, like, spirally spiral, spiral curly hair, and when it's, like, not feeling well-contained, it, I mean, it's just n- it looks... Do you guys remember Bozo the Clown? 

Sara Ferrer: Of- 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: I h- my hair looks like Bozo the Clown. It is, like, the most ridiculous, beautifully crazy hair in the entire world, and I love it.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: But yeah, my mom, growing up, my mom didn't know how to style our hair. My sister has similar hair, and so [00:51:00] she would have it just cut really short. And if you have really curly hair, you know that the shorter it is, like, the less weight there is on it, and so it just gets, like, bigger and bigger and bigger.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And so I- I've had some, I've had some interesting haircuts in my time. 

Sara Ferrer: I, you know, and the fact that you have the sticker that says, "Messy hair, big..." Like, there's so much l- there's so many layers to you, which I love, and again, some of it is just conversational and light and funny. 

Serena Reynolds: Before we go further, Sara- Yeah

Serena Reynolds: what was your worst hairstyle? Come on. 

Sara Ferrer: Oh, you already know. Bowl haircut, bangs. It was out of my control. Sit in the kitchen seat. Mom throws a towel around you. Let me tell you, Barb Frere did her best with those kitchen shears, but I look back at those first grade or kindergarten pictures, it's a bowl haircut.

Sara Ferrer: Me and my two brothers- ... had the same exact haircut. You got the Barb special. Come to the kitchen. Sit down and let Mom chop, chop, chop. Next. So that would be it.

Sara Ferrer: What about you, Serena? [00:52:00] 

Serena Reynolds: Well, you see when I, when I hit about 13, I thought a perm was- Oh ... was the thing. Hm. 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: I did the perm. 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. At home or in a salon? 'Cause 

Serena Reynolds: those, those- In a salon. It was in a salon. Hours of sitting there with these tiny little rollers in my hair. 'Cause I wanted the curly hair, okay?

Serena Reynolds: Yeah. I wanted the curly hair. Yeah, yeah. I, 

Sara Ferrer: I love my curly hair, but 

Serena Reynolds: it's a lot. Perm is not the curly hair. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was scary. I spent, I spent the whole summer in hats. 

Sara Ferrer: That's so... Do you just put a lot of mousse in it and you're like, "If the curl's gonna curl, right?" 

Serena Reynolds: Yes. What is that?

Serena Reynolds: What is that? Why, wh- when, when you're that age and you get your perm, why is there crunchy hair? Why would you put- Crunchy hair, baby ... mousse in it? Crunchy hair. Ugh. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Well, you have to get the mousse with the olive oil. If you are listening to this and you have incorrigible curly hair, you gotta go to Walmart, the bottom level where they have the natural [00:53:00] hair for women of color.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: You gotta get the olive oil. Get something with a name like Olive Oil Miracle or something. If it costs more than $6, you got the wrong one. You want the mousse. You get out of the shower with your hair soaking wet, you turn your hair over and you put on g- like, two baseball-size amounts of mousse, and you scrunch it, and then you don't do anything else.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: And it'll turn out perfect. 

Serena Reynolds: See, that whole girl, uh, curly girl hair is just... I, I, I love that. I mean, my daughter's got quite curly hair, so, um, absolutely love it. But no, the perm was not that. 

Sara Ferrer: Serena, you know the assignment. You know the assignment from Liz. Walmart, bottom floor, bottom, uh, level. Bottom level.

Sara Ferrer: Olive oil goddess miracle of wonder or something. 

Serena Reynolds: I, I think I was pre the good stuff. 

Sara Ferrer: I love that. That is like, God, the twists and turns of this conversation. First of all, I have board straight hair. I kind of wanna get a bad perm just [00:54:00] so I can go and get the olive oil miracle product and spend $5.99 so that I'm following the rules of under six, just to then FaceTime Liz and be like, "Did I do it right?"

Sara Ferrer: Um, there is something about, you know, your, your journey, and again, the ins and outs, and I think the, the realness to you, like Serena had said earlier, the realness, right? Like, I call it flawless. Maybe at times you'd say, "Hey, I'm super flawed, but I'm just, I am who I am." For anyone listening who was like, "I dig this lady.

Sara Ferrer: I dig this lady. I, I wa- I wanna know more about her. I wanna visit her on her website, read about her profile, her bio," where do people find you in this thing we call the worldwide web? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: It's just coachdrliz.com. So coach and then drliz.com. That's it. 

Sara Ferrer: And Instagram, uh, Facebook, are you active on those? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Yeah, I'm on Facebook.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Instagram intimidates me. I'm not cool enough to be there. I'm [00:55:00] still like a chubby girl at heart. So I, I... There's, you'll, you'll find an Instagram profile for me. I'm not su- super active. Facebook is where I'm the most active. You can find me on Facebook, it's just Biz Dr. Liz, and LinkedIn is the same. It's just Biz Dr.

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Liz. So facebook.com/bizdrliz, linkedin.com/bizdrliz. 

Sara Ferrer: And the Ladies Who Lunch, what area are, is that specifically in? What part of the country? 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: It's in Maryland. You're welcome to fly in for it if you want. The airport is six minutes away from the restaurant where we do it. So if you are in the Maryland area, we're at Tigerlily the last Friday of every month at noon.

Sara Ferrer: Fantastic. This has been such a treat. Like, we do this, we record these, uh, these, these conversations. When I leave this call, and I'm sure Serena will be the same way, I don't know what to do with, with the rest of my day. There's so much to like. There's so much to be like, "Oh, God," like, like the [00:56:00] triumphs, the, the tribulations, the, the haircare.

Sara Ferrer: She knows everything. This has been really- 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Call my family and say as much. She knows everything, 

Sara Ferrer: Nola. Well, isn't it, though? Listen, I always say that those who are transparent and tell their stories usually, and I say this with love, you know, if, if you were to say this to your mom or a sister, they'd go, "Who?

Sara Ferrer: You're talking about who?" I mean, that's, I think you don't have a family that, like, naturally... You know, they support you, but they're also kind of sometimes shocked when they're like, "Oh. Oh, she's, she's doing so well. Well, she was, you know, she was very lost last year." I think that there's an ebb and flow is what I'm trying to say, and when someone always says, "Hey, you know, I'm great," and everyone thinks I'm great, usually it's quite the opposite.

Sara Ferrer: A little humbleness is always hap- uh, good to have. Yes, correct. Correct. But this has been absolutely wonderful, Liz. Thank you for sharing your story, and we, uh, we [00:57:00] wish nothing but the best. 

Dr. Liz DuBois Erskine: Thanks for having me.