Speaker 2 (00:00)

Welcome to Fearless and Flawed. Today, our fearless female founder is Changa Pasekas. Changa is an intercultural trainer and founder of Cultural Origami, where she designs and facilitates dynamic training programs that help international businesses foster inclusive workplaces and stronger teams. I’m Sara, an email marketing pro converting clicks into cash. Together, Serena and I are two women in charge diving into the fearless

flawed and fabulous journeys of women entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3 (00:31)

I’m Serena and I make brands stand out from the noise, elevating thought leaders into go-to experts. Welcome to our podcast, Changa. So what inspired you to start cultural origami and how has your own intercultural journey shaped how you work and what you do today?

Speaker 1 (00:50)

Hi, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here. And that is a loaded question. I think my journey is similar to other entrepreneurs in a way that I had no idea what I wanted to do as a career for a very long time. And so I did so many things. I studied international relations because it kind of seemed interesting, but then I never ended up.

working in that, although ironically, I think my job now is the closest I’ve gotten to the field. And yeah, and I got into like different business areas, worked at different companies. And in the meantime, so when I was at university, I got a chance to spend a year abroad in Belgium. So I’m originally from Hungary. And that was the first time I was really like in a very international, very diverse, very different environment. And I was really exposed to

all these different cultures and everything.

Speaker 3 (01:43)

How long were you there for?

Speaker 1 (01:45)

It was a year, but because it was a very packed year because I was very young and very curious and we did so many things.

Speaker 3 (01:51)

What are the language differences? So what’s your native language?

Speaker 1 (01:56)

So my native language is Hungarian.

Speaker 3 (01:58)

And in Belgium, they speak mostly, isn’t it French?

Speaker 1 (02:02)

Yeah, so I basically went to Belgium because I needed a language. I had English as a second language and then I needed another language to get my degree and I was learning French and I figured I needed a place where they speak French, but also they speak other languages so I can still communicate while I figure the French out and then yeah, Belgium,

Speaker 3 (02:20)

Is there another language in Belgium that they speak?

Speaker 1 (02:22)

Yeah, they also speak that.

Speaker 3 (02:24)

I

was not sure. thought so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:27)

It’s a very multilingual, multicultural place to be.

Speaker 3 (02:31)

It’s a small

country in between the two, isn’t it? So I remember driving through to get to the Netherlands.

Speaker 1 (02:38)

Yeah, yeah. And there are so many internationals in Brussels, like my flatmates, so we were five people in the house. There were two Macedonians, a Romanian, a Filipino, and I. So that was my first very intercultural experience.

Speaker 3 (02:51)

I’ve only ever known I’ve never met anyone who is from Belgium I know people that have lived in Belgium but no one that has has come from Belgium strangely enough

Speaker 1 (03:05)

Yeah, I’m not too surprised though. Actually, my luck for meeting Belgians was that I went to the student organization and the local office where I was working actually was at a university where mostly Belgians were studying. So I was in touch with Belgians, but we actually had this conversation with my flatmates all the time. They were working at international companies. I mean, there are of course Belgians everywhere, but somehow we were more exposed to internationals.

Speaker 2 (03:28)

Love that. And so like you’re there, you’re exposed to this intercultural, even this like roommate situation, you’re immersed in it. Just walk us through, because when we hear, when I hear intercultural trainer, it’s like, what does that mean? Break it down to like the most basic layman’s terms for us who go, what is that? Who do you deal with in your path? What was your aspirations and what’s the reality of what it looks like job wise?

Speaker 1 (03:54)

So basically what I do as an intercultural trainer is I help people understand cultural differences and the different perspectives because it’s, since we live in our own environment and we grow up in like our, in our place to say it like in one way, like it’s that’s a very natural environment for us because we get used to it as kids and, the way things work and the way we learn to function in that environment is very natural

But then, you like you move out, like not necessarily even to another country, but like you to move to a different city or just, I don’t know, get a bit more exposed to the world. then at least in my case, I just realized that, okay, there are very different ways of functioning. like, nobody really taught me about cultural differences. so basically moving to Belgium was like this very deep dive experience. It was like, my God, like there’s so much more out there than I thought there was.

I don’t know how I didn’t get fat while I was living

Speaker 3 (04:51)

I got fat just thinking about living there.

Speaker 1 (04:53)

yeah, the struggle is yeah, so that was my first like real intercultural experience. And actually it was in a way my inspiration to get into my line of job.

because later on, I went back to Hungary after that because I had to finish university and I started working. But I had this bug still in the back of my head saying that I want to move abroad again, I want to experience this again, I want this vibe again, or I I don’t know, I wanted the experience. And I ended up moving to Spain, where I am based now. And it was similar in the sense that I just moved because I got a volunteering project and

And then I just discovered the whole place for myself. But what actually led me to work in this was that I felt like me myself never had this sort of help when I moved countries or even when I was working with different cultures. And I kind of had to learn everything the hard way, like, you know, just talking to people and just thinking like, what the hell they mean, or like, my God, they are so rude. And they were not rude. They were just more direct than I was. And then I just kind of interpreted it the wrong way.

So eventually I came to the conclusion that yeah, this is something that is very interesting, something I really want to work with. And I also just really want to help others not having to have these like shocking experiences by themselves or just, you know, like kind of learn things the hard way.

Speaker 2 (06:15)

Can you elaborate when you say like shockless for those that are listening. So I imagine you’re coming from Hungary, you’ve lived in Belgium, now you’re in Spain. Like give us examples of like as minor as major as they may be where you’re like, whoa, I didn’t know that this was a norm or hey, like I’m kind of offended. Like, is this normal? Give us some examples of what might be a cultural difference that’s a very popular.

that you train on or that you have to, you know, have to make people aware of.

Speaker 3 (06:44)

Can I just share something just the English and the Dutch, we have quite good relationship as a general rule. And it’s popular belief here in the UK that the Dutch are very polite. They always speak English. Their English is impeccable. They always speak English. I worked a lot with Dutch companies. Now this isn’t a blanket.

sweeping statement or anything. But I was talking to the guy, he’d actually lived in Belgium, strange connection here, and was also lived in the Netherlands and could speak Dutch. So he was like a translator at the time. And I remember going, yeah, the Dutch people, they’re just so nice and friendly. And he’s just like, no, it’s just because they haven’t learnt to be rude in English. And I just thought that was hilarious.

They just haven’t learnt to be rude in English because it’s not what they get from

Speaker 1 (07:33)

Really

interesting you say that because the first culture shock when I was at my first job back in Hungary was actually with Dutch because I’m not very like I’m an honest person, but I’m not very direct. Like I like to be polite when I talk to others, like just to consider also their feelings and all these things. And when I was working with Dutch, I had the impression that a few of my colleagues were just very straight to my face. And like I

found them so rude and just so inconsiderate. And it took me a long time to learn. And now I actually have some really good Dutch friends. And we spoke a lot about this. basically, they’re just direct because they really appreciate transparency and honesty. And they really find it important to give you honest feedback. you would actually like, that’s their way of helping you, which for me was just mind blowing because it is not how I used to function at all.

So yeah, I can definitely resonate with that story.

Speaker 3 (08:26)

It seems as though we had polar experiences there.

Speaker 2 (08:29)

you find that like, I’m just surmising, okay, I’m gonna move somewhere. The first thing I’m gonna do is I’m gonna Google, right? I’m gonna Google, we have access to all this information, maybe go on a couple of Reddit sub threads about cultural differences. So I guess in your line of work, who comes to you? Individuals? it more corporate corporations like, hey, we’re gonna be working with the team in Spain now, the American and the Spanish team and like.

you know, the time differences for eating or cultural directness might be different. Who comes to you? And again, like what are the major topics that you kind of dive into in terms of the cultural differences that one might encounter on their journey? So is it individual, is it corporate? And then what are we facilitating? What types of topics are we really diving our teeth into?

Speaker 1 (09:19)

I typically get approached by companies for sending their expats abroad and just to help them prepare for working in a different environment or even just moving to a different environment. mostly it’s, interestingly enough, the requests are mostly to help them work in a different environment. But the questions I get during my trainings are mostly about actually the living situation or the country itself.

And yeah, it’s really, it’s very interesting because of course I speak a lot about the communication aspect. think that’s something that is very, very relevant both for just work and just live anywhere because we always have to talk to each other, right? So it matters. Right.

Speaker 2 (10:00)

What’s like, what’s like, I’m sorry, not to interrupt, but I’ll just click on that. Like what’s one cultural, common cultural misunderstanding? Like I want to be specific because again, I’m so new to this. It’s like, give me an example of like, we talk about communication, directness, but what are some other things? Cause I’m thinking a company has paid now, has paid you to come and to educate their employer or their employees, excuse me. like.

Is there a format? there a guide of like, these are the things we’re talking about? Give us a little sneak peek into like Changa’s in the room now. She’s going to really let you know, like these are the things to expect or just the overall cultural topics to discuss.

Speaker 1 (10:38)

So usually, like, for example, with communication, I like to talk about meetings. I think that’s, in a corporate context, I mean, we always have meetings and well, I think most people can relate how that works. But there are so many little differences across cultures. Like, for example, there are all sorts of cultural dimensions I talk about. And so one of these dimensions is like people versus task orientation.

And so, for example, when it comes to meetings, task-oriented culture will typically approach this just, you know, like saying hello, two minutes of, I don’t know, introductions, and then we just get to it. And then we just focus on the task at hand. We go through the agenda. We make it efficient. We wrap it up, meeting done. Whereas in a people-oriented culture, because they value very much the people they actually work with, it’s very common to have at least a good 15 minutes of small talk.

And, you know, just catch up on the weather, on families, on a football match last weekend, on, you know, literally any kind of personal something just so that they kind of establish this like trustful environment. And then they get to the conversation. And even the conversation could go different, like depending on who is on the room, who is in the room, like the nonverbal communication. So

So I usually like take these different dimensions and then we go through these. And of course I bring all these examples like this with the meeting, but then yeah, there are also many, many other situations because at the end of the day, cultural differences are all value differences. And it helps us if we understand the underlying differences that we have in values and how they actually look like in our behaviors.

Speaker 3 (12:21)

I working once again, sorry, going back to the Dutch, is cake. Took cake to a meeting. Which was, you know, the kind of thing that you would do when you go to a friend’s house, you take cake or wine or something. No, you did that. We did that for the meetings in, when we were in the Netherlands.

Speaker 2 (12:39)

I’ve never heard this. Tango, can you come sign this? Is this a thing? Will show up with cake.

Speaker 1 (12:44)

I used to work with them remotely, so sadly there was no cake in that setting.

Speaker 2 (12:49)

Interesting. is so, I mean, that’s an example. That’s an example. Listen, if someone brings like cake to a meeting or something, that’s a great example. I have like, everyone’s happy. Who doesn’t love cake? I’m curious. You mentioned directness, right? You mentioned communicating styles. There’s kind of dancing around maybe something, maybe putting some fluff on it, warming up the critique or criticism, if you will, versus just get to the point. Here’s what needs to be done.

And I want to just talk about the emotions around that, right? Because I’m somebody that I like to think I’m direct, but I’m direct with very much a safety guard there where I want to consider your feelings. You know, my mother used to be a teacher, so there’s this idea of, we start with what someone’s doing good first before you go into what they’re not, because there is, learning, you’re more inclined to learn better if you’re given, know, hey, you’re doing great, room for improvement here.

But then naturally you do work with people who the mindset is like, because I respect you and because I like you, I’m going to be transparent with you, hyper transparent. And that can even be in family, right? That’s not just work. That could be society. How does one navigate? I think on paper, it makes sense. Cultural norms, we all respect it. But how do you deal with kind of the nuance of like, I’m still a human and maybe for 38 years I’ve communicated this way and it kind of hurts to be told, you know, to be spoken to this way.

What is your role in kind of navigating the murky emotions and the feelings behind how one receives a cultural difference as being right or wrong, offensive or hurtful?

Speaker 1 (14:24)

My entire job basically revolves around like, kind of helping with like having these emotions land a little like softer. Because if we are aware of the different like approaches, the different values, like what you just said that like you are in a certain way, but you’re aware that there are also different approaches. Like I think already if you’re aware of that, and you also understand where the other person can come from, like that can already help just to

like when you find yourself in that situation, you know, just to have this little voice in your head, like, hang on, I heard this might happen. Like that person maybe doesn’t want to hurt me. Maybe they just want to be transparent. Maybe they just want to help. And it just helps you approach the situation differently. Of course, we’re all human, right? So of course, if you’re like already really worked up, then maybe, maybe you wouldn’t think this immediately. like if you’re in a little

like in a good place for the conversation, then you would actually think like, oh, okay. So maybe instead of just like going with my gut reaction, like I could maybe ask a question or, just like approach the situation with more curiosity instead of just like snapping at the person for considering them being rude.

Speaker 2 (15:35)

I like to snap. I like to snap. That’s my go-to.

Speaker 3 (15:38)

like to just bring into the conversation that I haven’t moved culturally culturally. You know, I was born 20 miles down the road. I’ve lived in London all my life. Obviously, I’ve gone on holiday, but that’s very different from from living anywhere else. And, you know, and I also I’m also very appreciative of of us English being completely awful when we go on holiday. I’m not one of them. however,

I’m fully aware of it.

Speaker 2 (16:03)

Awareness is step one.

Speaker 1 (16:05)

Exactly.

Speaker 3 (16:06)

So not just the cultural thing. So I’ve worked a lot with Europe as well as America and as well as just individuals as a whole. And one thing I’ve noticed is how certain people write emails and I can be very offended by their writing style. And I have to remember that the conversation side of things isn’t like that. Do you find that that’s very similar?

in with the cultural differences that you know I don’t want to mention cultures but certain cultures are known for being very direct and curt and to the point and some of us some of us are a little bit fluffier and don’t quite take it quite so well so is that the same as as the email situation that we’re seeing on a smaller basis or a more global basis maybe?

Speaker 1 (16:55)

I mean, that’s that’s a perfect example for cultural difference and how you actually can speak the same native language and still have like, you know, that still doesn’t guarantee that you will understand the same things. That just shows how like complex culture really is. And I usually like to break this down that, you know, you don’t have to live abroad to actually experience cultural differences, because as long as you’re interacting with humans, like

In a sense, like cultural differences are value differences. And it’s where we’re talking about group habits. And you can have like certain little habits within your family, which counts as a cultural habit. And then you go to your friend’s place and you just notice that they have different behaviors. And that’s already like a cultural difference that we’re experiencing. So they’re way more present in our lives than across countries. It’s just that we don’t really know that.

Speaker 3 (17:44)

So what locations do you specialize in?

Speaker 1 (17:49)

I do a lot of training for those who move to Spain because well, I’m located in Spain. So, and I’ve been here for the past 10 years and I also worked with in Spanish companies and also worked internationally. So I find it very easy to navigate. But I also do give a lot of training just about like cultural differences in general, because I just find that like understanding how the differences work and just doing practical exercises because I’m all about practice and fun and just.

kind of learn this and I can more easy going way because then it makes it easier to apply. I also do generic workshops.

Speaker 3 (18:24)

kind of practical things to you? What kind of things you do in your workshops? mean, I’m intrigued. There was an advert that used to be on here in the UK and it was about the cultural differences in banking, just so happened to be banking because that was the advert. And it was like, you know, different hand gestures, what they meant across different locations and stuff. So is that the kind of thing you cover or in all of these things?

Speaker 1 (18:49)

Yeah, also.

Also, and especially like in the context of, for example, direct indirect communication, like when when I prepare people who move to Spain, I have like a list of like, sentences they might hear. And then we go about like, okay, like, what what does this sentence really mean? Like, you know, like the kind of thing when somebody says, we’ll see. And then you’re like, but what exactly that means? Or, or I actually one time did a little poll, like, I don’t know, like I posted on on LinkedIn about

If somebody asks you something and you say, okay, I will send it to you in a while, like how long or like, you know, what exactly that means for you.

Speaker 3 (19:28)

Okay, we have three very different cultures here. What does we’ll see mean to you, Sara?

Speaker 2 (19:34)

listen, that will now. Let me just preface it with Chang. I had mentioned sometimes within your own culture you can find you can find yourself very lost like will see will see. I liken it to when someone says I’ll call you back in 15. I’m very literal person, so if you say I’m going to call you back in 15, I’m keeping my phone by me. I am always glancing at it. If you say will see, I’m assuming.

that there is a pending action going on, then I’m gonna have some type of closure on. I’m assuming now I know better from my life experience that we’ll see can sometimes be a nice way saying no.

Speaker 3 (20:10)

Two.

Speaker 1 (20:11)

Ha

Speaker 2 (20:12)

to me because I have been disappointed many a time. We’ll see. Okay, great. I’m thinking I’ll check on in another two days to see how we’re seeing.

Speaker 3 (20:23)

take.

Speaker 1 (20:24)

Okay, so I’m one of those people that if I say we’ll see, it’s a very soft way to say no.

Speaker 3 (20:29)

Me too. Me too. We’ll see is my way of telling my children that that’s not going to happen. So stop bothering me now because if not, that’s going to be a definite no. At least at the moment, there’s hope.

Speaker 1 (20:42)

Yep.

Speaker 2 (20:43)

What about, what about this brings up then another, because I am in an intercultural marriage. I didn’t know that was a term until you’re in it, until you realize communication, American communication direct, very much like read my mouth. This is, I’m going to tell you how I feel. I might feel one way one day, completely opposite the next day, but as long as I express it, that’s okay. So I’m of the belief, right, of a culture where it’s like, say what you feel.

Don’t hide it, right? Smile big, express your feelings. I have some Russian friends who when I first met them, like, they never smiled in photos. And I said, why? Girls are like the happiest people I know. no, no, no, that’s a little bit of bad luck. You don’t want to be too happy because then that’s kind of like a little bit of like, you’re too happy, someone’s going to steal it away. A little bit of like, don’t show your joy too much. what I’m trying to say is that

I struggle a lot with the time differences in language when it’s like if someone says, and it can be any, any, any culture, but like Spanish culture, Egyptian culture, American culture. If I invite you over to my house at eight o’clock and you show up at 10 PM, baby girl, you better have a hammer to knock down that door. Because if I said eight and you show up at 10, I am like, this is rude. This is disrespectful. The food is cold. But Spanish culture, there is a bit of like a

20 to 30 minutes is okay. Egyptian culture, two hours is the norm. I can’t, look, I, I still can’t get over it because it’s a bit of a mind, it’s a bit of a mind game. It’s like, why not just tell me to show up at 10 if you expect everyone to show up at 10, why tell me to show up at eight? So unraveled this for me, Changa, like why?

Speaker 3 (22:21)

show

up at eight. If you said eight, would be ten pass, court pass.

Speaker 2 (22:24)

10

past 10 past 10 past 15 past. I’m totally OK with that. Even 20 back two hours late.

Speaker 3 (22:29)

way

you say that, doesn’t feel natural coming from you.

Speaker 2 (22:34)

I get it. Like I’m not trying to like, also think if you arrive right on time or kind of a little bit before that’s kind of puts a little pressure on the host. The host always needs to settle in a little bit, but 15, 820. But I’m like, when I went, when I go to Cairo, am so mind F’d about what time we’re showing up anywhere. Cause I’m like, well, they said eight and it’s like, no, we’re showing up at 10 30. And then I’m annoyed and I do it and I get annoyed because it’s like,

but I don’t want to be perceived as disrespectful. And Changa, this probably plays into maybe what some of your clients say. I don’t want to be. I’d rather be first and last.

Speaker 3 (23:07)

rest.

Speaker 2 (23:10)

Want to walk in and everyone’s on dessert and you’re like, hey guys, you save a piece for me. mean, how do you deal with.

Speaker 1 (23:16)

They

were.

Speaker 3 (23:16)

I

do want a proper dinner. As long as I get dessert though I’m happy.

Speaker 1 (23:19)

Sorry.

Speaker 2 (23:22)

Exactly. Same. How do you navigate that, Jenga? How do you navigate, like, cultural differences from between a perception of time and what that means? Please enlighten me. I am your first-line.

Speaker 3 (23:35)

No,

this was the thing. can’t wait.

Speaker 2 (23:38)

I’ve been

suffering. I’ve been suffering, String.

Speaker 1 (23:40)

Yeah, no time is huge. Like this is actually a huge topic because it comes up very often and especially like when I’m preparing like people from Germany or like from a punctual culture, let’s put it that way to move to Spain like this really is something I tend to stress out that the interpretation of time is different across cultures. But then again, it’s not it’s not really because they just don’t respect each other. It’s just that in some cultures, like, like

Yes, there are just other things that are more important than time. And so they treat time a little more fluidly. for example, if we go back also to the meeting, like, like who is in the room is like, you know, people oriented culture is much more important than to get the task done. So it’s a similar thing with time, like depending on who you are with, like if the person is more important than you’re still the same willing to wait for them.

for longer, just prolong the time and then just kind of bend the rules because there are just other things that are more important than to get things done on time. But of course, and then here I would also just want to add that this is also different for everyone. So we also have the layer of personal differences when it comes to time and punctuality and all these things. I think that’s also something that is important to be mindful of.

I mean, to this day, I’ve been in Spain for over 10 years. I actively need to force myself to arrive late to places. But I also, reached a point where I’m just like, I cannot stand waiting 20 minutes for people to start showing up. like either I arrive late and I deal with that like part that, okay, like I have to arrive late. Like I cannot be there on time or I have to deal with the frustration of showing up on time and then just.

freezing until everybody arrives or just get annoyed. yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:33)

See,

naturally, my family, my family unit, we arrived slightly late, bit flustered, tried our best to get there on time and didn’t quite make it family. My son is by far the worst. He would turn up at 10, Sara. OK. And then he would go, I needed a shower. And that would be his excuse. So I didn’t actually realize that it was such a big cultural shift.

I have actually experienced it when I’ve gone abroad on holiday, where life is so much slower than it is here in London. we run or I personally, I mean, I run hot anyway. I run fast and I’m fast at everything. Late, but fast. Yeah, so a bit like Sara really.

Speaker 2 (26:18)

Yes,

yes. But this is why we get a lot like I think we talk a lot too about differences, right? And lot of this conversation has been differences in adapting. I’m curious because I know that there’s a lot going right. OK, I know that in all these cultural differences, there’s a lot of probably gems of like, hey, this is while this might be different, this is actually better for the whole when we act this way or when we abide by this kind of this kind of system. So in your experience, Changa, is there one

country or is there one cultural norm from a specific country that you can say as a blanket statement? If everybody adopted this cultural norm from X, the world would be a better place.

Speaker 1 (27:00)

I don’t think I have one of these things. I think the beauty is in having so much diversity and just knowing that this is like embracing these differences is what actually makes us better.

Speaker 2 (27:12)

You’re not going to say show up at 815. You’re not going to just be on my side.

Speaker 1 (27:17)

I’m sorry, because the thing with that, because I also learned this, because I’m also the kind of person that if you say eight, there’s a very good chance I will be there before eight or five. But I also learned that like the thing of about being allowed to arrive late that also comes with flexibility that like people don’t get offended if you reschedule if you cancel or if you have something coming up. it has like this

good side to it too that we don’t always see when we end up waiting 20 minutes for people. All these things come with perks as well.

Speaker 3 (27:49)

Is there a culture that turns up 20 minutes early? And I asked specifically because my dad, I think this is why I’m like I am, is because I had to rebel. My dad is 20 minutes, 30 minutes early for everything. He will sit in the car and then come and knock on the door, still half an hour early, but he would have sat in the car for an hour first because he can’t bear to be late.

Is there a place where he would fit in without driving the rest of us insane?

Speaker 1 (28:21)

I mean, I would say like from like the generalization, I mean, I like to say like these, you when we talk about cultures, it’s like a statistical average sort of thing. And then of course there are always individual differences because we are all human and we’re all different. But like from a generic perspective, I would say like task-oriented cultures tend to be the punctual ones because they just consider time as a resource and it’s valuable and they respect that. So.

Probably in Switzerland, Germany, in the Nordic countries he might feel very comfortable with this. I’m not sure whether they arrive already, to be fair, but they are mostly on time, probably.

Speaker 2 (28:56)

I feel like we him and I could just have a little community of just raging against everyone who is like 25 minutes 10 minutes, but I appreciate someone who shows up 30 minutes early and sits in the car. I’ve been known to do that myself and people go. Have you been waiting outside? No, no, no, I I just got here. It’s like no, I’ve been scoping out the neighborhood for 30 minutes. Cause I came too early. The neighborhood.

Speaker 3 (29:19)

already

phoned the police and said there’s strange woman stalking the houses.

Speaker 2 (29:23)

This is true. This is true. mean, I also feel like, again, I think as we talk about these things, I think what’s the refreshing thing is sometimes, you know, when our feelings get involved, sometimes you can you can feel a certain type of way about it. But it’s true. I think what I’m learning from Changa is like at the end of the day, it’s a value system. Right. And like I always would perceive like, you’re late. You’re not valuing my time because you’re not valuing my time. You don’t respect me because you don’t respect me. Queue the funnel versus time is flexible.

Right? Like, let’s let’s kind of rephrase it. It’s not that they don’t value you. It’s that like time is seen as something that doesn’t have a hard limit. It’s to be enjoyed and you might be benefiting from from the time. Maybe they have a meeting at 10 o’clock and they’re over your house and they’re like, I’m having such a good time. I’m going to stay here a little bit more. So you’re going to reap the benefits of that of their fluidity of time versus always being on the short end of the stick. But mentally, it’s hard sometimes that we see the benefit because we’re human. So we’re like.

How does this affect me in a negative way? Let me just stew over it. Right?

Speaker 3 (30:25)

Sara has had a couple of conversations about now that she lives in Spain compared to her American lifestyle from like even even the laptops in the in coffee shop, which is such a big thing here. They’re called coffesses, you know, they have a name. You’re going to set up at the coffees today. That’s where you’re working. yes, you said on a Sunday, it’s like a don’t don’t don’t even think about it. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:53)

Have you noticed that too? I think I, you know, from an American culture, I think this idea of, especially as someone who doesn’t have your traditional nine to five, right? Like I carry my laptop with me, I’m always, you know, emailing or checking in, Serena and I are having kind of Zoom calls on the fly. There’s this idea of like work and play are very much melded together, which now I’m realizing that hard limit is actually necessary for like some type of barrier. But I think here it’s like,

I almost feel the social shame, I receive, you know, I receive properly where like, if I show up on a Saturday or a Sunday to a cafe that I typically would on a Tuesday or Wednesday with my laptop, I just, I’m uncomfortable because it’s so evident that I’m the loser who is, who is here. Like no one says anything, but it’s just, no, I will tell you it’s the, when I say loser, what I mean is,

I look at everybody enjoying themselves, enjoying the weekend, laughing, eating, conversing. So when I say loser, mean…

Speaker 3 (31:59)

See yourself as the loser, not them seeing each other.

Speaker 2 (32:02)

see myself as, shit, Sara, it’s Saturday, close up the laptop, sit outside and enjoy. So I think when it comes to valuing my free time, the Spaniards have taught me that, hey, if you’re gonna work, you must incorporate some type of free time to balance that out. I’m not saying it’s a perfect system, but I’m saying when you are the only person on a laptop in a large cafe and everyone’s laughing and enjoying.

You kind of have to say, okay, I can read the room. think I’m the problem. Have you noticed that Chango that like?

Speaker 1 (32:34)

I find Spaniards, take their leisure time really seriously. Like when they are at work, they are at work. And even at work, really like, they like the personal connections. I used to work a lot with Spanish people at Spanish companies before I started my business. And it’s, know, like having a coffee together, like having meetings over food, like even that had like a social element to it most of the time. And then like when the time was up, the time was really up and then…

then it’s all about the fun, it’s all about like the drinks, going out, enjoying life. And they do take that part seriously, so.

Speaker 3 (33:07)

I will go out to dinner with my family, drink wine and be on my laptop.

Speaker 1 (33:11)

I

Speaker 2 (33:11)

I can attest to that. I can attest to that. No, but there have been times where you’re at like your daughter’s like a play or something and you have to be there as a chaperone, but you’re still doing the zoom call. Yes. So I, you know, you would, you would die, Serena, if you came to Madrid. I couldn’t. Honestly. tell her, if she comes to Madrid in August for a whole month, everything is closed. I mean, people just write signs, you know, relaxing, CIS September 2nd. So it’s, it’s, it’s

Speaker 3 (33:21)

Hi, I’m with me.

They’ve been shut for a whole solid two weeks. then there’s, we’re, us Brits are like, I mean, we do have that shutdown period, but it doesn’t shut down. Not at all. It just means everywhere’s more expensive to go on holiday. That’s all that means.

Speaker 1 (33:53)

In defense of the Spanish, I think this also is because the weather is so hot in summer that it’s just they had to adapt their way of life around that. So I mean, that’s another thing I usually talk about that like the history and like the geographics of each country that also influences very much how the culture works. So actually, the reason for Spanish to really shut down in August because it’s just

50 degrees outside and you just cannot cope with things. Like your brain just doesn’t work. Even if you’re sitting under the air conditioning, it’s just, you just feel the heat from the inside and like there is no way you can take like conscious business decisions in that heat.

Speaker 3 (34:33)

But is it also because Spain is such a holiday destination as well?

Speaker 1 (34:38)

It could be. I think it’s connected also. mean, if it’s that hot, the only way you can cope is being on the beach.

Speaker 3 (34:46)

Zangria.

Speaker 2 (34:47)

Ben goes right. Listen, she’s right. Because when it’s that freaking hot, you don’t even want to get up off the couch. Like you said, even with the AC, and not a lot of people here have AC, which is like, you know, have the fan kind of blowing warm air on you.

Speaker 3 (35:03)

here we yes us Europeans quite

adapt quite so

Speaker 1 (35:07)

Also for the records, Sangria is for the tourists.

Speaker 2 (35:11)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (35:13)

I’ll

a drink if I don’t want to look like a Taurus.

Speaker 1 (35:15)

Tinto de Verano, which literally means like summer wine, which is very similar, it’s not. That’s the thing Spaniards drink, not sangria.

Speaker 2 (35:26)

It’s

a little bit of a spritzer. No, but that’s a very good point. speaking of like, we’ve talked a little bit about drinks and food. I want to ask you a question that our last guest here, we had Susan Kellerman on. She’s a bakery shop owner of Tasty Cakes Madrid. So this is a great transition because I’m like, how am I going to make this question work?

Speaker 1 (35:48)

We asked her to…

Speaker 2 (35:50)

know it’s

good, but I to have a segue. I’m like, I hope this conversation steers so that this question kind of makes sense. Being proud of question last time for you. And she wants to know as she is a baker, what makes a memorable dessert memorable? What’s a memorable dessert that that what’s a dessert you love and why? Why is it so memorable? Tell us.

Speaker 1 (36:14)

this question. have such a sweet tooth, honestly, that I think this question was meant for me. For me, the creamier the better. The creamier and the chocolatier. Like I love chocolate. Not white chocolate though, because I don’t consider that chocolate, but milk or dark chocolate in any real year.

Speaker 3 (36:31)

in there we don’t consider white chocolate.

Speaker 1 (36:33)

Yeah, I know. And yeah, the dessert, the creamier it is, and especially if it’s like interesting combinations, like, I don’t know, something like mascarpone with like a very citricle fruit, for example, or like surprising things where there’s like something smooth and something strong. That for me is like amazing.

Speaker 2 (36:52)

If you give me some recommendations in Madrid, this is right up my alley. I’m like that combination is it. Do you find that like Spanish? Because Spanish desserts tend to be very, you cream filled puff pastry like a flan, like not overly chocolatey. Not over. You’re surviving and I mean, well, what’s how are you finding Madrid sweets in general with such a sweet tooth? Well.

Speaker 1 (37:08)

they know.

I have to say, I find a lot of pastries overly sweet, which is a very weird thing for me to say because I do love sweets. But it’s it’s trial and error. Like I still keep growing and keep trying and I do make stuff at home as well. Like sometimes I have like a very specific thing in mind and then instead of just looking for it, I’m like, yeah, I’m just gonna whip it up and see what happens.

Speaker 3 (37:36)

Spain

is a hot country and to me chocolate and hot don’t really, I prefer fresher, you know like you said like the citrus with the mascarpone, now that works in Spain.

Speaker 1 (37:46)

You can also keep it in the fridge in the summer.

Speaker 3 (37:48)

But

it’s definitely a warming, lovely yum.

Speaker 2 (37:54)

You’ve made us all hungry now. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (37:58)

But it’s

yum.

Speaker 2 (38:00)

on your tombstone. What? So now because because we do this thing where it’s kind of a blind question that you’re going to ask for the next person, you have no idea who they’re going to be. What do you want to ask them? What do you want to throw out there?

Speaker 1 (38:11)

I would love to know the most interesting place they’ve ever visited.

And why they thought it was interesting.

Speaker 2 (38:19)

why?

We typically don’t ask the person who asked the question to answer their own question. I mean, we’re going to ask the person in the future, but what’s your answer for that? Because I feel like you have a very good answer. That was a very specific, very pointed question.

Speaker 1 (38:31)

I feel like you’re

Well,

I think the most interesting place I visited was Machu Picchu and I did the Inca trail to go up and we went to like places that are not accessible in any other way and it just felt such an out of this world experience that to this day, thank God I have photos because otherwise it’s still like unbelievable that I was actually there because it just didn’t feel like anything I’ve seen before.

Speaker 2 (39:01)

Really? How is it like to like I’ve never been but I mean again talking about cultural differences right and just like you’re you’re you’re the altitude is crazy you’re feeling physically a little off there’s probably remedies that like you’re thinking oh I’ll just like pop a tile and all or I’ll take this but maybe there’s remedies that like no no no no toots like you’re in our area now this is what you’re gonna take here’s

Speaker 3 (39:23)

Food and everything is so different there. Right.

Speaker 2 (39:26)

How was that?

Speaker 1 (39:28)

I love the food. I’m a foodie and I eat everything. I have a strong stomach. So I had zero issues with the food. Honestly, Peruvian food is incredible. But yeah, the altitude is something that you just don’t know how it is going to affect you. And I was lucky in that sense that I never had any issues. But then I was going with some friends and some of them were. So we just had to take it easy so that they adapted. And then that time I didn’t speak Spanish. So of course, we also had some…

I don’t know, playing activity on the streets with people just to find our ways and all that.

Speaker 2 (40:00)

That’s where the hand signals in the eyes really become really important when you’re like, OK, I got to ask out charades what I’m trying to say.

Speaker 1 (40:09)

And it’s

more universal than you would think. If you don’t have a common language but you both want to understand each other, these gestures come much more natural than we would assume.

Speaker 3 (40:18)

Being English and being an English speaker and Sara might attest to this. don’t know. I’m gonna I’m we’re gonna find out so I have found that English are really funny when we go to fun when we go to other countries because We very rarely speak another language. We don’t get taught it in schools Everyone speaks English most people speak English as a second language or as business language So when we’re faced with somebody that can’t speak English, we just talk louder slower

and in their accent. And we think that’s going to make them understand us.

Speaker 1 (40:51)

makes you feel any better, Hungarians do that too. Imagine being a non-Hungarian speaker and being shouted at by Hungarian who is actually trying to explain you loudly and slowly.

Speaker 3 (40:54)

Okay, cool.

Bye.

Speaker 2 (41:04)

Yes, followed by an aggressive pointing gesture. There’s always an aggressive pointing gesture that follows that or tapping, you know.

Speaker 3 (41:13)

I love that so much that’s like one of my favorite things to watch. I find it hilarious.

Speaker 2 (41:20)

It is truly, I think that example is like, and you said Hungarians do it too. think this conversation, there’s just been so much, when we think of intercultural differences too, it’s the nuance-y things. It’s so subtle at times. Like you said, it’s the hand gestures, it’s the speaking louder, but it’s slower, putting on the accent. So for anyone that’s listening, that’s like, okay, you know, I’m planning a move or I know someone who’s planning a move and yeah, they can Google things, but nowadays, you know,

the norms change and they change so fast. And even again, there’s very nuanced, subtle things you can always better. Correct. Correct. So how do, how do people find you? Chang? If someone said, I want to learn more about cultural origami. I want to learn more about what she does, or I work for a business that is sending people abroad. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:55)

our world.

we get hold of you?

Speaker 2 (42:12)

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:12)

I do have a website that has most of the things I do, but I also am very active on LinkedIn, so it’s definitely worth finding me there. also have a cultural origami has a page, I have my personal page.

Speaker 3 (42:24)

Share the links

with us and we make sure it goes on the site so people know how to find you. And before we wrap up, I’ve got one more question.

Speaker 1 (42:29)

will definitely do that.

So.

Speaker 2 (42:36)

What?

Speaker 3 (42:36)

So we’ve talked about all the yes kind of scenarios. I want to know what are the big no-nos that we shouldn’t be doing when we go places? What are the biggest no-nos in locations?

Speaker 1 (42:48)

From the top of my head, would say, just don’t assume. Don’t just look at something and think you know what’s going on because there’s a very big chance that you just don’t. It’s just really like, when people ask me for my top tip of what to do, I always say ask questions and I get surprised faces. like, but it’s so obvious. It’s not because we go to places, we see something, we make a snap judgment, not because we want to, but it’s just how our brains are wired.

And then we think we know, but then we get surprised when, you know, the situation turns out in a different way. And so, yeah, I would just, you know, advise to stop for a moment before you think, you know, what’s going on. then maybe just question it a little bit before, before you come to a conclusion.

Speaker 2 (43:32)

I feel like you were talking about me in every situation I’m in. like, I already understand the situation. I figured it out. I know exactly what’s going to happen. And then something happens where I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on. I made this all up in my head. I should have asked. That is a great tip. thought it would be much more to your point. I thought it’d be much more like, don’t talk loud or something. But that I actually think that makes sense. Just don’t assume. Ask questions. Be the student instead of the expert.

Speaker 1 (44:00)

Also don’t beat yourself up because this is also like any skill we learn in life. It’s trial and error. It’s, you know, even if you have the awareness, sometimes you will just, yeah, you will make mistakes or you will misunderstand things because it’s just, that’s how diverse the world is and that’s how diverse we are as humans. So, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:19)

Wonderful. Well, thank you for enlightening us. This has been wonderful to talk about intercultural differences. And if anyone wants to find out more about Changa, we’ll have her link, her website and her LinkedIn page on our website, fearlessinslaw.com. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Changa.

Speaker 1 (44:33)

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (44:36)

Have a good day.

Speaker 1 (44:38)

to.

Speaker 2 (44:39)

Okay.

Speaker 3 (44:41)

Just find no problem.

Didn’t hear a call.

Speaker 2 (44:44)

Yeah.

No, it says the meeting’s being recorded.

Speaker 3 (44:47)

I know!

That’s true, my fireflies.

So we do have a recording. It’s just not what we normally have. It’s okay. It’s okay. I just went. If I hadn’t, if I, if I hadn’t been running late, um, we have a video.

Speaker 1 (44:56)

This is

Speaker 2 (44:57)

You

know what?

this outchanga.

Speaker 1 (45:07)

Hahaha

Speaker 2 (45:07)

She’s Eastern European. She’s cool, calm, collected. We’ll figure this out, Serena and I. Serena, no, take those in. We’ll figure it out.

Speaker 1 (45:10)

Perfect.

Speaker 3 (45:15)

It’s all good. That’s why I have Fireflies. That’s my backup for that one time that I’d forget to hit the record button.

Speaker 2 (45:21)

We’re all gravy baby. Serena, you and I will discuss later the technicality. Changa, we won’t keep you any longer. I think this was great. I think you gave us some good insight. wanted, I was trying to poke you to be like, the Americans suck.

Speaker 3 (45:33)

The British agree with me, we’re all full on holiday. We expect everyone to speak our language, serve ourselves egg and chips or whatever the hell us English eat when we’re abroad.

Speaker 2 (45:45)

Exactly. No, she was so good. You were great, Senga. We won’t be in touch. We’ll let you know. I’ll be reaching out with an email for bio and photos, but I’ll be in touch and then we’ll let you know when your podcast will be released.

Speaker 1 (45:58)

I was about to ask if you need links and stuff like that, but then you just send me whatever you need and I’ll send you all of that.

Speaker 3 (46:06)

You got it. Have a great

Speaker 2 (46:07)

Cool.

Speaker 3 (46:08)

podcast by the way that was a good one. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (46:11)

Thank

you. Good poking. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (46:12)

is

Speaker 2 (46:15)

Enjoy the rest of your day. Have a good weekend.

Speaker 1 (46:17)

too. Bye.