Sara Ferrer: [00:00:00] Welcome to Fearless and Flawed. Today, we're joined by Sasha McDowell, executive coach, leadership strategist, and founder of Epicycle Group. She partners with senior leaders and teams to reframe their conflicts and challenges so they can execute better, innovate faster, and actually hit the strategic goals they keep writing down.

Serena Reynolds: And here's the bit that got me. Sasha went out on her own 11 years ago for one reason. She became a mother, and she wanted ownership of her own schedule. She'll be the first to tell you it did not make life easier, but it gave her the choice, and that's a very different thing. 

Sara Ferrer: She spent years coaching women just like her, then watched the business quietly turn into something else completely different.

Sara Ferrer: Today, it's a B2B leadership development firm, and Sasha has just come out the, of the other side of a full rebuild of the whole thing. Four months of writing, a lot of [00:01:00] research, and what she describes as a rebirth 

Serena Reynolds: And I'm Serena. I produce podcasts and webinars that grow your business 

Sara Ferrer: And I'm Sara, an email marketing pro here to convert clicks into cash.

Sara Ferrer: Together, Serena and I are two women in charge, digging into the fearless, the flawed, and the fabulous journeys of women founders rewriting the rules everywhere. 

Serena Reynolds: So let's dive in. Welcome to our show, Sasha. 

Sasha McDowell: Thank you both. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Serena Reynolds: So Sasha, you started your business 11 years ago, and you're very clear about why.

Sasha McDowell: Mm-hmm. 

Serena Reynolds: You became a mother and you wanted ownership over your schedule. But you also said, and I quote, "It didn't make life easier. It meant either parenting or working kind of all the time." 

Sasha McDowell: So can I tell you about that? 

Serena Reynolds: Y- Yes, absolutely. Let's start at the beginning. 

Sasha McDowell: So, yeah, I mean, I had this baby [00:02:00] and, you know, I knew that, you know, quote, "No woman know how, knows how she's gonna feel when she has her baby."

Sasha McDowell: And, and then I would, I would say that out loud to people and think in my head, "But I know w- how I'm gonna feel. This baby is gonna fit into my life. She's going to daycare. I'm staying on my career path. I just finished a double master's. I have a career goal. I had babies later on purpose." So I was pretty clear that that didn't apply to me.

Sasha McDowell: And then I met my baby and, you know, it was very pre-COVID. I often think if I'd been born 10 years later, I probably would've been able to get a hybrid leadership role in my field, which was nonprofit management, and I would've just kinda kept going according to the plan. But I ended up trying to negotiate for part-time or hybrid at my employer.

Sasha McDowell: They said no, so I ended up quitting my job thinking, "I'll find this hybrid role," which was just much more difficult than I thought. So I began the business as a side gig, thinking, "Obviously, I'm gonna get back to this career that I've [00:03:00] worked so hard to establish and that I love and is completely in line with my strengths and my values."

Sasha McDowell: But slowly the business grew. I had another baby, and I decided I'm gonna go all in and this is really gonna become a second career. Always with, like, some bargaining with the universe, you know. If I can't make it work by the time the second is in kindergarten, then I'll go back and work for somebody else.

Sasha McDowell: But, um, was able to figure it out. But yeah, to your point, Serena, it was not easy. But I have decided that I don't know that there's anything really meaningful in life that is easy. I think all the meaningful things are actually really hard, right? Parenting, long-term marriage, long-term friendships, navigating a career that feels meaningful and pays the bills.

Sasha McDowell: It's all hard. Even when it's wonderful, it's hard, so... 

Serena Reynolds: D- I, I have to admit, the thing that grabbed me is when you sort of said if it had been 10 years on, COVID, then you, things m- might have looked different And I always [00:04:00] wonder why that is. 'Cause I, I did something similar to you. I, um, I was working full-time First child went into childcare.

Serena Reynolds: Second child, a bit harder to juggle two, so I went self-employed. I wonder, I wonder why. What, what was... It wasn't just COVID. I'm sure it wasn't. I think it was, it had just become acceptable to work from home. Maybe. Well, and to me, the structure changed. 

Sasha McDowell: The structure of work changed, right? I tried to negotiate for flexible or hybrid, and they were like, "Absolutely not," because it just wasn't a model that was accepted at the time for high performers or for leaders.

Sasha McDowell: And then COVID forced everybody to have to do it, whether they were on board and thought it was a good idea or not. And of course, now, you know, many years after COVID, we're seeing more of a shift where some folks have decided hybrid is actually a really powerful leadership and top performer retention strategy.

Sasha McDowell: Other folks are saying, "No, you've gotta be back in the office. We're willing to see what [00:05:00] that does to our talent pool." And so I think, you know, now folks have to think through pretty deliberately how they want the office to look. But so the system has changed, but it, it, it wasn't changed back then. 

Serena Reynolds: But I als- I also wonder, uh, and, you know, deliberately trying not to, to go down this lane too much with podcasting in, in the podcast, but the one thing that did change is, so, so women had been trying to do this for years, to, to be able to work a little bit more from home, and it was only when the men had to that all of a sudden it opened up.

Serena Reynolds: And, and that's just a, a p- a perception of mine, 'cause I certainly did know people that were hybrid working. I certainly did know, from a tech industry, I definitely did know people that could work remotely. Um, but for me, it was too difficult. It was too hard. I, I literally had, um, uh, people point out how unprofessional it was for me to, to be hybrid [00:06:00] So that was, that was a bit of a personal, like, shifter.

Sasha McDowell: Well, it is, it is personal. I mean, one of the things I strongly believe in my business is the personal and the professional, they're always linked, right? Which really brings us right back to hybrid work. I mean, one of the things that I read years before the pandemic is you, if you're gonna make hybrid work work, you can't make it this person has a good reason, that person has a good reason, and one of the...

Sasha McDowell: It has to be rolled out for everybody, to your point about, you know, men and women were experiencing it, and then it became something available to everybody. I remember, I'm a non-pet owner, much to my children's horrible sadness. I'm allergic to dogs. But I remember reading pre-pandemic, you know, you can't say that this person can work from home because of their kid, because then you have pet owners saying, "But what about my dog?

Sasha McDowell: I wanna walk my dog," or, "Now I have to hire a dog walker," right? So I think to, it just, what you're saying, what it brings up for me is we have to [00:07:00] take people's personal whys out of why they want hybrid work, and more think about who does hybrid work retain, right? Because the stories that I hear, it's, you know, "Well, I wanna live here," or, "My child is young," or, "I don't have children, but I'm caring for my air- ailing parents," or, "I have a physical challenge that makes going into the office really exhausting, and I'm just less tired and more focused at my job when I can work from home for part of the time."

Sasha McDowell: Um, or the mental load. "It helps me when I can cook in bulk on a Friday, and you know what? I can simmer lentils and create a PowerPoint at the same time, and it just brings down my overall stress level, which makes me a better worker, a better parent, a better friend, a better spouse," right? The reasons for individuals are so different.

Sara Ferrer: I wanna, I wanna get back to, like, so I, and I appreciate this, that like when you were kinda transitioning then, okay, you said, "Listen, can I do the hybrid thing?" They clearly said no. Because I find it very, [00:08:00] um, interesting when we interview, you know, all different types of women in business and that leap of faith happens, right?

Sara Ferrer: In your case, it sounded like there was, it was very black or very white. You can either let me do hybrid. If I can't, I have to figure out something else to do. I have these kids, I have these... S- things are shifting. So you decided, "Okay, let me now go off, start my business." Can you walk me through What does that actually look like?

Sara Ferrer: It w- w- and I, and I mean, like, literally, like, okay, I'm gonna spend six months before I say that I'm gonna leave building a, with a business plan, or I'm going to figure out, like, how does one take the leap of faith, create, uh, a business, r- get clients, think of pricing? I mean, all those things that I think our listeners often hear these great stories of like, "And then I started a business."

Sara Ferrer: And then the kind of the, the bullet point is, "But [00:09:00] how? But how did you start?" 

Sasha McDowell: So first thought is sort of more a joking thought. I mean, Sara, I love how you just paint that picture of my life. It was so clean. Love that. It was not clean. There was nothing clean about it. It was really messy. I hear a lot of people talk about like, "I can't start a business because I can't go down to $0."

Sasha McDowell: I hear you, and same. It was rough. There were not-- It's not like there were zero trade-offs in making this decision. There were a lot of sacrifices, but I sort of saw it as I was gonna have to make some sort of sacrifice. And to be honest, you know, Sara, I was 12 weeks postpartum. I wasn't thinking, like, super strategically at that point about trade-offs.

Sasha McDowell: I'm a very values-driven person. I have always made choices around all the big things in my life according to my values. It has not made it easy. Definitely not easy. However, it does mean that I don't have a lot of big regrets because I made choices that were really in line with [00:10:00] who I am. So, you know, here we are 14 years later, and now I know, you know, my daughter has ADHD.

Sasha McDowell: I didn't know that when she was a baby, but I did know that this baby needed to be near me. Had I had a different baby, it mi- I mean, I remember meeting a friend's baby. I didn't even know babies like this existed. This baby let all the moms at the pool pass him around and hold him. My kids were like, "Nobody touches me except Mommy."

Sasha McDowell: So it depends on a lot of factors, right? But I I think it was not conscious at that point, but I did decide I'm gonna bet on myself. I'm gonna leave this job, and at the time the plan was, obviously I can find something else and I can negotiate hybrid. I came real close. I came in second at a startup where I think maybe I could have negotiated it, but guess what?

Sasha McDowell: When you're second, you don't have the job. You're second, right? So it was a lot of kind of small steps, and I was scared. You know, it was a very anxiety-provoking time. You know, the clock was ticking towards 40 and I wanted another baby. Um, [00:11:00] and you know, I did a few different things along the way. I did some consulting that paid the bills, but I didn't love.

Sasha McDowell: And so I really only started the business as a way to think and learn and grow. The consulting was gonna bring in the money, and the business was a way to think and learn and grow, whereas originally in my career, those were integrated. I was getting paid for things that were also intellectually stimulating and allowed me to grow.

Sasha McDowell: And so then it was bargaining with the universe, right? Like, you know, I'll keep looking for a full-time role, and I, I did find a unicorn job at one point, and that kinda took me away from the business. Um, but then that wasn't the right fit for a variety of reasons, and then I decided I'm gonna go all in and I am gonna bet on myself.

Sasha McDowell: And at that point it was conscious. I am gonna bet on myself. So then to your point, then it did turn more strategic, right? And not that it wasn't before then, but I just mean the moment of the decision was a passion heart decision, you know, about this baby. So I think the learning the how, it's such an interesting [00:12:00] thing that you bring this up, Sara, because I have realized recently there's so many things where we do know the why and we do know the goal, but we don't actually know how.

Sasha McDowell: And one of the things that's pretty tricky is if you talk to a lot of very smart, educated people who've been quite successful, they don't agree on the how either, right? So in one way, that's a relief 'cause there's not one way, there's not one how. But, you know, I, I am an extrovert, so I learn well... I certainly like to read, but I like talking to people and hearing their stories.

Sasha McDowell: So I have had I can't even tell you how many hours around pricing, around pricing in different regions of the country, around pricing with different kinds of clients, around services, around how to structure services. And I think one of the things that really helped me get better at my business, which took a long time, was when I realized you have to start looking at things as an experiment.

Sasha McDowell: You are, and I think [00:13:00] this is true for W2 workers as well, high-achieving folks. We just can put so much pressure on ourselves to wanna get everything right, right out of the gate, and that's just not how these, these paths work. I don't know, I'll say over 35, over 40. I mean, we kinda all needed to do the same things, you know, K through college.

Sasha McDowell: We just did. And then the path becomes very individualized, and you don't know who you're gonna meet, and you don't know how they're gonna react to you. You don't know how you're gonna click. You don't know if they're gonna push you out of your organization or if they're gonna promote you, right? There's a lot of things that happen.

Sasha McDowell: But I think Talking to people, collecting information, reading, taking courses, getting educated, and really working on a mindset around experimentation, trying new things, gathering data. And the, the final thing I'll say about experimentation is I know we don't like making them, but mistakes are the best teachers.

Sasha McDowell: Those mistakes get burned into your psyche and you do not forget. So I've gotten a lot more [00:14:00] forgiving and welcoming of mistakes, you know. And it's not that they seem so bad to people outside of me, but in my head I'm like, "Well, that was a cluster. Not gonna do it like that again." But I learned from it, right?

Sasha McDowell: And then you talk to other business owners and they're all experiencing the same thing, "This worked, this didn't work. I would never do that again." You know, it's just- Right ... the journey, iterating. 

Serena Reynolds: Absolutely. You need to, to step away from that Instagram and start speaking to real people in the real world and seeing exactly what's working and not working for them.

Serena Reynolds: Yeah. That's what I love. So in 2021, you, you told us on, on our pre-chat that, um, kind of by accident you started getting, um, bigger B2B contracts started landing. So first of all, I think we need to address what it is that you do, and then how this, how this started to kind of happen for you, how this kind of took off.

Sasha McDowell: Sure. So when I started the business, I wanted to support people like me, [00:15:00] high-achieving women who had reconfigured their careers for family. And I, I did do that for a while, but I was not able to build it into really a fully functioning business. And you talk to most business owners and they're like, you know, "A bunch of failures until we got it to work," right?

Sasha McDowell: So I still love working with that aspect of people's identity, how family impacts career, but as you said, Serena, it naturally morphed into a leadership development firm. So as you shared in the intro, you know, we really work with, we partner with senior leaders and teams around working through complex people dynamics.

Sasha McDowell: And so that is thinking about challenges and conflicts differently so they can achieve their goals. And as leaders and as teams and within organizations, you know, we're, we're in general helping people to collaborate better, solve their problems faster, innovate more, make better decisions together so that they're in alignment and they're achieving those goals for the organization.

Sasha McDowell: And so we have four [00:16:00] services. One is working with individual leaders through executive coaching. The second is we do a lot of work with teams, so that can be longer term team coaching engagement, it can be working with dyads or pairs, it can be conflict resolution work. The third thing we do is leadership development training, and that is often cohort-based training around a specific population, right?

Sasha McDowell: So it could be high performers, it could be middle managers, emerging leaders, it could be women, it could be parents. Any sort of group with something in common that you wanna bring together and have them do train- training and peer-to-peer learning. And then the final thing we do is organizational consulting around change and around culture.

Sasha McDowell: So, yeah, I think for me it just, many of my clients who were parents, you know, I realized they were really coming into the business not so much because of parenting, but because of challenges in their career. Children and family were certainly a powerful contextual factor for many of my early clients, [00:17:00] but really we were spending time talking about their career, how to navigate this tricky situation, how to manage up, how to work better with their team, how to work towards their next promotion.

Sasha McDowell: And just started creating more relationships with businesses and leaders within businesses and, as you said, just rebuilt the website, which launches next week, and really, um, sort of through the website codified this change that's been happening organically for many years. 

Sara Ferrer: I love that, Sasha. Let me ask you a question about measuring success, right?

Sara Ferrer: Because I come more from, like, an e-commerce background where it's like, "Okay, I'll know if something worked if I can double my sales or if my conversion rate increased," or how do you measure success now? I understand you have these clients, they're coming in, here's the services you offer. How does one leave saying, "That was successful"?

Sara Ferrer: What are the goals? What are the metrics? How are we measuring it so that people can say, "Okay, my investment with [00:18:00] Sasha, with, with, with this program was, quote unquote, worth it"? 'Cause I think we live in a world naturally where, you know, a before and after world where it's like, "Okay, okay, okay, it sounds great, but is it successful?"

Sara Ferrer: And then well, what is success for you? 

Sasha McDowell: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so success in a nutshell really comes down to the goals and the metrics that the organization or the client has defined at the beginning of the engagement. You know, so even though I made a career change, it's kinda not that different than what I envisioned originally.

Sasha McDowell: I went to graduate school thinking I was gonna run a nonprofit and become a therapist, so I did a master's in public administration at Columbia with a focus in management, and also a clinical social work degree. So it's always been about management and metrics and also people, which is really what my business is.

Sasha McDowell: It just looks different than I thought, right? So if we're working with an individual, we have always started the relationship with a sponsor at the organization and the individual's supervisor, and they sort of let us know [00:19:00] what are some of the goals. We also set goals directly with the client. All that is shared back transparently with all of those different stakeholders in the organization.

Sasha McDowell: And then we meet with the client and the sponsor and their supervisor at a few times during the engagement at the end to really report out on the progress, right? So everybody's a part of the process at every step of the way. There's no surprises at the end because we've been talking the whole time.

Sasha McDowell: With teams, it's a little bit different because-- or if it's an organization-wide project, 'cause we're talking about many more clients, right? Like if I'm working with a team of 10 or one of us is working with a team of 10, that whole team of 10 is the client, right? So we're really coming up with what we call transformative KPIs, which is what are the KPIs that need to be in place at the beginning of an engagement that are gonna create a change by the end.

Sasha McDowell: And so we tend to have sort of pre-evaluations to get a baseline of how a team or an organization is functioning, and then [00:20:00] we are also collecting data at the end, as well as qualitative analytical da- uh, excuse me, anecdotal data in the middle of an engagement. So again, we're capturing that baseline, we're checking in throughout with the sponsors and the leaders of the engagement, we're getting the anecdotal data, and then we're really capturing more metrics at the end.

Sasha McDowell: So we're actually able to calculate sort of percent increases for folks around their goals. So percent increases around greater trust on a team or in an organization, greater psychological safety, willingness to bring up difficult conversations and navigate conflict so that we can get to the innovation place.

Sasha McDowell: So, so we're really combining both the, the qualitative and the quantitative in terms of how we capture success. 

Sara Ferrer: I love that. That is so powerful, 'cause I think, you know, it's one of these things where What you just mentioned, like I think sometimes too, success for many people can be the numbers, right? Are we increasing [00:21:00] sales?

Sara Ferrer: Are we increasing... Like, but to your point, like, do you feel safe? Can you manage conflict? Conflict is a very healthy, natural part of life, right? And it's, it's in our workspace, it's in our marriages, it's in our... To a degree. I mean, my mom always says, uh, when it comes to marriage, if there's not a little arguing here or there, again, respectful arguing, respectful disagreement, then someone's doing a lot of over-compromising.

Sara Ferrer: You know? It, it's okay. And so in your experience, 'cause this all sounds great, right? It sounds like you have the, the, the blueprint. You know what you're doing. You, this has been, you know, again, like you said, tested. Tested what works, what doesn't. What... Was there a time, or tell us about a time where you were like, "God, I did that A/B testing.

Sara Ferrer: I, I did that hypothesis. I thought this would work." Tell us a time when, when there was failure in, in, in a way in which you thought something would work with a client, or you, you were measuring something, because certainly in order to get to the point you are now, you had mentioned there has to be [00:22:00] mistakes along the way.

Sara Ferrer: So give us a lesson that you learned along the way of like, "Ugh, I really thought I was crushing it with this one project or this one team, and I just, I didn't think about this variable or this factor." 

Sasha McDowell: Yeah. You know, it's such an interesting question. You know, I definitely can think of mistakes that I made managing other people and things like that when I was a leader, but I think in the business where we've been fortunate is we've not had experiences with clients that are, like, a failure.

Sasha McDowell: So the example... And, and I really think that is because number one, we do not overpromise. We're very clear about, you know, I have control when I'm the one from the team working with a client. I have control over what I bring into the work, but I'm working with live people with all sorts of different personalities, and it's, it's a collaboration, right?

Sasha McDowell: So you're making... And so I can do [00:23:00] my part. One of the things they say about coaching, and I think it applies to consulting as well, is my responsibility, our responsibility is to create the conditions, but the client has to do the work. So you are reminding me of... And I can't control that part, right? I can do everything in my power to change approaches, shift strategies, ask questions, figure out what's not working, identify blocks, but I can't actually do the work for the client.

Sasha McDowell: They have to decide to go deep in and make change and look at the hard parts that are hard to look at, which we all have, and take the uncomfortable action steps to change and be different. You are reminding me of one tricky client we worked with, very high performer, and, you know, the CEO sort of said to us, you know, "We wanna see major changes around just sort of a, a positive organization pro-organization attitude.

Sasha McDowell: The performance is there, and, you know, we [00:24:00] were very deliberate to say at the beginning of that, one of the things I like to say to people is, "So I don't have a magic wand. I cannot wave my wand and promise you that that's gonna happen." I said, "But what I can promise you is either you will see the shift in approach and mindset that you're looking for, or you will have your answer that you need to manage this person out.

Sasha McDowell: Those are two different potential paths, and we can commit that through an engagement, you will have clarity on that by the end. But I, unfortunately, I don't have that wand to decide on the outcome and that, that this person will shift attitude, 'cause that's not within my control." So I think it's a lot of iterating with individual clients 'cause our work is so relational, but just trying to be very realistic about what we can control and what we can't, so the clients know what they're signing up for.

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. Working with people is difficult, and I think, you know, that's, that... Or, and Serena and I talk about this all the time, where like sometimes, you know, [00:25:00] we, we're people-people. You know, you're, you're a people person. Like, we love people. People are unpredictable. Sometimes, you know, like you said, you, you, you underpromise, overdeliver.

Sara Ferrer: Sometimes people read underpromises as overpr- There's, there's so much, there's so much stuff involved when it comes to working with people. But that also, it sounds like from your experience, and again, from the career in which you've taken, it's also the most rewarding, right? Because you are helping people who perhaps maybe, you know, at some point you saw yourself in, or the same struggle.

Sara Ferrer: So I think it's very, very, very interesting to hear really about, um, to really hear about your, your take on how do you manage people, especially as a business coach. And then furthermore, how has this mindset for you... Because remember, in the beginning of the story, you got into this because life was happening outside of work.

Sara Ferrer: Things were shifting and changing. [00:26:00] Has any of these, uh, work-related structures and, um, foundations trickled out into other aspects of your life now? Family, social, anything like that? 

Sasha McDowell: Oh, definitely. And I know it's interesting to hear the que- the way I'm hearing the question is, have the lessons from work trickled into my personal life?

Sasha McDowell: But for me, it's more a back and forth. You know, both of my parents were therapists, so I grew up analyzing people over dinner, which was a lot of fun, and very much what my personality is meant for. So, you know, I remember in high school when I wasn't doing my homework, it's 'cause I was on the phone with my best friend staying up till 1:00 AM analyzing people.

Sasha McDowell: I mean, she went on to become a psychologist, right? Clearly we both liked people. And I always loved children and had this many, many years doing direct service work with children before I got into management. I remember when I got promoted into management, I had a wonderful boss [00:27:00] and I said to her, you know, I had the imposter syndrome.

Sasha McDowell: I was 25, I was leading a, a, a fairly large team, and I said to her, "You know, I don't really know how I'm qualified to be here." And she said, "I think you'll find that managing adults is not that different than managing children." And I was like, "Oh my God. She's right." With children, it's, "In 15 minutes, we're putting the markers away.

Sasha McDowell: In 10 minutes, we're putting the markers away." You go through that and then, you know, people cry and you say, "Listen, I, I did tell you we were gonna put the markers away." Now, with adults it's a little bit different, right? In six months we're gonna be going through major organizational shifts. We're gonna see some, see some changes.

Sasha McDowell: We gotta think about that. We gotta talk about that. So I was able to kind of apply one to the other. And then when I became a mom, I felt so grateful for my career 'cause I was like, "I can run this house the way I would run a team or an organization." So, I think I do run my home the way I run my team or an organization.

Sasha McDowell: We have nice systems. They're clear. They're clear [00:28:00] structure. We're not rigid Not rigid about them, you know. Some days you're tired and you gotta take a different path. A lot of humor, lot of humor. Life is hard. Life is hard. We gotta laugh. I believe in crying too, it's therapeutic. But, you know, I, I raise my children with a lot of humor and ability to look at themselves, laugh at themselves, realize it's not gonna last, and keep looking inward and iterating and experimenting and making the changes that you need to make to tackle the problems.

Sasha McDowell: So to me, it's like you learn a lesson at home, you bring it into work, then you'll learn a lesson at work, you bring it into home. It's constantly... Or to marriage, and it's actually interesting, Sara, one of the things you said before about conflict, um, the leading marriage researcher in the country, John Gottman, who's so interesting 'cause he was originally trained as a mathematician at MIT and then became a couples therapist and is completely science and quantitatively based, you know, his materials have been pulled into working with teams, to working with individual [00:29:00] leaders.

Sasha McDowell: Because the, at the end of the day, relationships are relationships. Trying to get things done is trying to get things done, and the two work together. Whether you're at work or you're in a, in the personal sphere, it's about getting things done and getting things done with other people. Um, so yeah, I just think there's massive overlap.

Sasha McDowell: Massive overlap. 

Sara Ferrer: I love that. Um, where, where do you see, where do you see yourself in the next five, let's say next five to eight years? 'Cause it sounds like, okay, you've learned a lot, you're continuing to learn, there's a lot of fluidity here in terms of every day you're, you know, you're laughing, you're crying, you're taking it all in, but you mentioned something very, very important, which is things will change, right?

Sara Ferrer: I love that when you talk about things will change, enjoy it now. We could be laughing today, maybe we'll laugh tomorrow, maybe we won't. Where do you see this evolving? Because it sounds like you have such a, and maybe this is 'cause both of your parents were therapists, such a [00:30:00] holistic, comprehensive view, perspective on not just business, but on kind of life and, and how the two really, uh, play well or don't play well together.

Sara Ferrer: So where do you see your business in the future, in the next three to five years? 

Sasha McDowell: All right. So three to five or five to eight? 'Cause those are very different for me. 

Sara Ferrer: Well, I said five originally, and then I'm like, "Do I do three to five or five to eight? I don't know, maybe she won't ask." And then she asked.

Sasha McDowell: Here's why five to eight is so significant to me. My daughter goes to college in four years, game changer. My son goes to college in eight years, another game changer. So- Empty nesting. Yeah. And I'm a very future-oriented person. I know some people think it's, like, crazy to think about what's happening in eight years, but it will be a big shift.

Sasha McDowell: Um, both of my kids are going to summer sleepaway camp for the very first time in two days. We're gonna have one week, the first week. I [00:31:00] am so excited. I so remember, I so remember that first week away from the children. Uh, can I just tell you, I'm sorry. You know what my 10-year-old, who I adore, total future leader, had the gall to say to me three months ago when we were doing summer camp planning?

Sasha McDowell: He's like, "I'm not gonna go to sleepaway camp the same week as my sister, 'cause I need a week at home without her." I was like, "Let me help you embrace reality, my sweet s- sweet small friend." "You will not be having a break. I will 

Sasha McDowell: be 

Sasha McDowell: having a break. You are definitely going to camp the same week as your sister.

Sasha McDowell: What kind of break do you need? You've been on the planet for 10 years, friend." Anyway, that, I digress, okay? I digress. 

Serena Reynolds: That is hysterical. 

Sasha McDowell: I need four, five, eight years Well, now, I find working on the business actually to be very creative. I'll tell you, I'm a knitter, and I don't want to offend all the knitters out there because I love my fellow craftspeople, but I don't think knitting is actually very [00:32:00] creative.

Sasha McDowell: I've given this a lot of thought. Knitting is following a pattern and, and building sequentially, following directions. The most creative part is picking out non-traditional colors at the beginning. But designing solutions for people based on all the different personalities, based on the organizational culture, and based on all the different factors in the ecosystem and what's happening in the world at, at the present moment, is actually very creative, and I love that.

Sasha McDowell: And I started out designing programs for young people, and it was such a natural fit for me. So I think in five to eight years, I just wanna move a lot more into writing and, and just getting more of my ideas out there. You know, I run a lot of groups with senior leaders, senior women leaders who are at the vice president or the executive level, and we had a very...

Sasha McDowell: And I learned so much, and I, we had a very interesting conversation maybe a year and, a year and a half ago with one group about legacy. And what [00:33:00] really stood out to me about that conversation is legacy is not something you create in the last five years of your career. It's very easy to fall into that way of thinking, and it's not accurate, because I could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Sasha McDowell: You could be hit by a bus tomorrow, and you have created a legacy. You're creating your legacy every single day by how you do what you do, what you get done, and how you treat people, would be my quick and dirty definition of legacy, right? So, but I think that if I am not to be hit by a bus and I do have that five to eight years, I'd just like to write and sort of codify a lot of what I've learned to share it, you know, with people and with people who are younger than I am at that point and at an earlier stage of their career, so that hopefully it can be helpful in some way as so many other people have been helpful to me by sharing their ideas.

Sasha McDowell: So, that's what I'd like to move to once my house is a little quieter in five to eight years. 

Sara Ferrer: I wanna start knitting. Now I'm like, "Wait, this is great. [00:34:00] This is great." Totally. Right, right. Like, I- It's 

Sasha McDowell: so relaxing. 

Sara Ferrer: Y- yeah. No, but I mean, w- I, I can pick out colors. I can follow a pattern, but the knitting needle too, they're too long.

Sara Ferrer: I've tried one-- Or was it crocheting? I don't know. The needles got all needley, you know? It's, there's too many needles here 

Sasha McDowell: Yeah. I love it. So relaxing. It's like a mindfulness activity, 'cause you have to really focus in the present moment. It's great. 

Serena Reynolds: Uh, I've, I've turned to knitting a few times when life's complicated, just to switch off, just to sit there and knit and not really have to think about anything other than, have I dropped a stitch?

Serena Reynolds: How do I get that stitch back? Oh no, this isn't adding up. Oh no, I think I was supposed to be on that row now. 

Sasha McDowell: Like, Serena, I love that you're saying that, 'cause I realized through knitting, kind of like Sara when we were talking about the personal and professional are connected, there's so many lessons about life and work that you can learn from your hobbies, and all the things you just said about knitting are a perfect example.

Sasha McDowell: Like, well, it was supposed [00:35:00] to go this way, but now it's not. Um, or I understood the situation incorrectly, and now I've done this instead of that. There's so many little lessons that we can take from our hobbies around how to apply to our, the higher stakes parts of our lives, so. 

Serena Reynolds: And there is one, there is one lesson I learnt from knitting that I do take into my everyday life: little mistakes are invisible.

Sasha McDowell: Yes. And you know, it's interesting, one of the things my mother-in-law told me that I always think about when I knit is, if you don't have at least one mistake in your knitting, it's an insult to the gods- ... because you're just a human. You're just a human, so there should be a mistake in there. So when I find myself getting, you know, a little perfectionistic, I'm like, "Don't fix it.

Sasha McDowell: It's supposed to be there. Leave it. Nobody's gonna know." 

Sara Ferrer: It's your signature, Sasha. Um, I love that. I also love how, like, when there is a mistake I've made, I just abandon the whole project, and I love how you ladies work through it. Oh yeah, I have a baby blanket that I was supposed to make for a child that's now eight years old.

Sara Ferrer: I was like, "I'll knit you-" 

Serena Reynolds: Blankets are [00:36:00] really boring, though. Really, really... Do you know what? I'm really good at knitting the whole pattern and then never stitching it together. 

Sasha McDowell: Oh, yeah.



Sara Ferrer: I actually have- Oh, yeah. That's fair. 

Serena Reynolds: Yeah. From my wedding 20-something years ago, I actually have a full knitted thing that I 

Serena Reynolds: made for my bridesmaid, still not sewn together.

Sara Ferrer: Renew the vows. 

Sasha McDowell: I can relate. I've made one sweater. I made it like five years ago. I never stitched the armpits together. It's literally like a seven-minute task. The thing is in a drawer somewhere. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful handmade sweater. 

Sara Ferrer: You both are the same ladies in different bodies. The more I get to know you, Sasha, the more I'm like, that's just Serena without the British accent.

Sara Ferrer: Let me tell you, same exact person. This is, this is wonderful. Uh, Sasha, usually at this part of, of our conversation, we like to... Um, I actually don't know if it will throw you off because you're, I feel like you love life's kinda curve balls, but we always try to ask a, a question, usually from the [00:37:00] previous guest.

Sara Ferrer: So unrelated to you, unrelated to what you do. Um, it could be as, as simple as like, do you prefer chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream or whatever. But in this case, we're gonna... Serena, can you pull up the question? I believe I Slacked it to you. Um, it's a random question, and we're just gonna see what you take with it.

Sara Ferrer: And again, there's no wrong answers. 

Serena Reynolds: I like this actually. Um, I forgot about this question. What was, what's one purchase under $100 dollars that's had the biggest positive impact on your health? 

Sasha McDowell: Okay. One thing under $100. Total? $100 total. 

Serena Reynolds: Yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: You 

Serena Reynolds: can't go over.. 

Sara Ferrer: I feel like Sasha would ask that clarifying question, though, 'cause I, I think it really- Yeah, 

Sasha McDowell: I've gotta clarify.

Sasha McDowell: I, it was, it was gonna be my weightlifting class, but that's 35 a week- Correct ... so that's over 100 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah, right, right. It's like the, it, like, like one payment at a time. So, yeah. 

Serena Reynolds: Knitting [00:38:00] needles and some wool. 

Sasha McDowell: Yeah. No, under $100 would really just be my sneakers. So I am an exerciser. I will differentiate and say I am not athletic.

Sasha McDowell: The athletic people don't like it when I say that. I'm trying to explain to them, "This is a compliment to you, okay? You have gifts like coordination, like catching things." I don't have those things. However, I have exercised nearly every day for, I don't know, 30 years or something, because it makes me feel good.

Sasha McDowell: And so my sneakers, when I'm not weightlifting in those sneakers, I try to take a daily walk outside. Um, certainly the gym is a great place, but I really like exercising outside. There is just something about being in nature and the air and, like, shaking everything off that not only are you getting the steps in and the endorphins and all that stuff, but just the mindset.

Sasha McDowell: So sneakers for under $100. 

Sara Ferrer: I have to ask now, and this is not part of the question, but you're outside, you're walking, you've got your under $100 sneakers on. What are we listening to on, on, on... Are we listening to podcasts? Do we have a playlist? What is Sasha listening to [00:39:00] on those power walks or everyday walks in the park?

Serena Reynolds: I'm hoping she says Fearless and Flawed. 

Sasha McDowell: I'm really hoping. If I'm, if I'm really stressed, I don't listen to anything. I try to completely just take in nature and be in the moment, 'cause that says to me my system, my body is oversaturated. So sometimes nothing. If I'm not that stressed, usually I talk on the phone.

Sasha McDowell: Not all the time, but that's how I, as a busy working mom, have reconnected with three of my closest girlfriends. We have hour-long phone dates twice a month with each of them, which I totally wasn't doing when my kids were little, but that has been amazing. And then podcasts. Sometimes music, but not as often.

Sasha McDowell: Phone or podcasts. 

Serena Reynolds: Do you know, I can't remember the last time I actually had a phone call with a girlfriend, apart from a Zoom call yesterday with one of my besties. 

Sara Ferrer: We were, we were chatting yesterday, me and Serena. I was like, "Who's your best- who's your Zoom bestie? Is that me?" [00:40:00] 

Sasha McDowell: But it was the first time in ages that, that I've done that.

Sasha McDowell: That's such a great thing Let me nerd out a little bit here, okay? So when we're talking about this connection between the personal and the professional, which I think is really true, about maybe five years ago, I started goal-setting in January in a really different way. Not just setting career goals, but also setting personal goals, which is also pretty common, right?

Sasha McDowell: Typically, people put health in there or maybe finances. But I also started setting key relationship goals to be really intentional about my relationships, and that's where the phone dates came from, or trying to do a one-on-one thing with each of my kids once a quarter. 'Cause I just find that we're so often intentional about work or about our health, but less intentional about relationships, and it actually came out of, my husband has converted our garage into a man cave, and he hosts all these guys every Friday night and they hang out.

Sasha McDowell: And [00:41:00] when he started doing it, I was like, "This is so great," because I feel like it's even harder for men in their 40s and 50s to make friends than it is for women, and it's already hard for women. So I was like, "I love that you're creating this community for men." And then I ran into a neighbor and I was like, "Yeah, you know, my husband talks to his friends all the time, and I don't."

Sasha McDowell: And she was like, "Yeah, I know. What, do you talk to your friends, like, once a month?" And I was like, "No. Like, twice a year?" I mean, it was really not happening. And just for me being so busy, I have to work it into the schedule. So now it's just in the calendar, and we just talk on the phone twice a month, and it's just been amazing.

Sasha McDowell: I feel so much closer to my closest friends and just have such a deep network now of, like, sure, the people I see all the time, but also, like, my besties, which is really nice. 

Serena Reynolds: I think that's really good, 'cause I th- I, I think it's so easy to, to just let life be life and not be intentional about relationships that [00:42:00] are outside.

Sasha McDowell: And all the research says that relationships are, like, the most important part for happiness, which then makes you more effective at work. It's all full circle. 

Sara Ferrer: Stress level down, exercise up, emotional happiness up, physical strength, everything is up. Sasha, what- 

Sasha McDowell: Better leadership, better decision-making

Sara Ferrer: everything. Yep. What would you... Okay, so you don't know who the next guest will be. I don't even know if we'll... Well, Serena and I know who the next guest is. Um, but you have no idea what they work in. You have no idea kinda what their background is. What's one question you w- just wanna throw out there? It can be, it can be related to work.

Sara Ferrer: It could just be related to anything, weight training, knitting, uh, uh, chatting with your girlfriends. What's one question to ask them? 

Sasha McDowell: I got it. I love things like this. It's so fun. Okay. I make up these kinds... We do it at, like, the dinner table with my kids If every day this next guest could have three hours in their day that nobody else has, it doesn't [00:43:00] exist for other people, it only exists for them, what would they do with those three hours a day?

Sara Ferrer: Interesting. Okay, I wrote that down. I have to just know, because I'm curious, can you answer your own question? What would you do with those three hours, Sasha? 

Sasha McDowell: Sure. Okay. God, what would I do with the three 

Sasha McDowell: hours? 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah. I mean, that's... What would I do? I'd sleep. I, I mean, I, I also have, like, an, like a, a almost eight-month-old, so I'd sleep.

Sasha McDowell: So if I was not well-rested, I would sleep, because I believe sleep powers everything else. But if I was well-rested, I would meditate for 30 minutes and then create something. Because it would be like extra non-mandatory time where I don't have to do all that boring and/or just required life stuff. So it would be a real chance to, like, go inward and, like, focus and create something and also grow at the same time.

Sasha McDowell: I would do that. 

Sara Ferrer: Serena, what about you? What do you do? And Serena, it can't [00:44:00] be work. It can't be work, Serena. 

Serena Reynolds: Well, I feel like, I'm... Okay, so if it's 

Serena Reynolds: no work involved, I... You know me too well. Um, I think I would probably do something creative Build something that's not work-related. I, I like creating. I mean, that...

Serena Reynolds: I like my job. I like doing what I do, so I like fixing things, building things, making things work. So I would still do that, but more creative. Probably upcycling or something like that. 

Sara Ferrer: You would be a great upcycler. You in those London thrift shops, let me tell you, girl, you'd be upcycling to the gods. 

Sasha McDowell: I'm so glad you went after me because I didn't tell Sara that some of what I'd be creating was for work, but I did- I wasn't under that umbrella stipulation like you were, 

Sara Ferrer: so. I just love Serena so, and we keep each other in balance, right? And I think that's the power, too, of, like, like, not friends, but friends who know you in work context, too, right? Like, Serena and I started off working [00:45:00] together. Now we don't work together anymore, but we're still friends, so we can see each other for b- in both spheres.

Sara Ferrer: And I think, you know, to your point, Sasha, like, you said something really powerful earlier, which is, um, you know, about being present and having goals outside of work, because so much of, like, goal-setting many times is like, okay, well, goal-setting could be like, "How am I gonna generate more revenue? How am I gonna do...

Sara Ferrer: You know, I wanna take more vacations, so I have to work more and get the promotion and do that." And then you're so focused on, like, the work aspect, and then you're on vacation stressed out saying, "Well, I just gotta do that email real quick." Or you d- like, you're just not in the moment, that everything just really becomes more metrics are, are work-related versus, like, am I, am I calling my bestie?

Sara Ferrer: Am I checking in? Am I actually calling to say happy birthday instead of shooting out the text? I'm so guilty of that. You know, like, a, and, and a quick five-minute call. Y- and saying, "Hey, I got five minutes," instead of like, "Ugh, [00:46:00] I just don't have the time." Everyone has five minutes. 

Serena Reynolds: Do you know I actually struggle with the concept of phone calls now?

Sara Ferrer: Yeah, me too. Yes. 

Serena Reynolds: What does that say about us and, and how things are shifting? 

Sasha McDowell: Sara, what would you do with that three hours? 

Sara Ferrer: Well, if I, if I was well-rested, if I was well-rested, um, which, you know, with an eight-month-old, listen, I'm running off of black tea and, and positive vibes, baby. Um, I would take a, uh, ceramics class.

Sara Ferrer: I would restart my ceramics class. I took it pre-baby. I have dubbed myself the c- the, the queen of the coffee mugs, 'cause I make a coffee mug every time, uh, uh, a handleless coffee mug. The instructor always says, "You know, you can make more things. You can make vases, and you could make this and that." And you know what?

Sara Ferrer: For me, um, there's something very therapeutic. It's the same reason I always watch the same movies when I'm on a plane. I don't like to watch new movies. I like the rinse and repeat. I like... Like when you said [00:47:00] knitting, like the hardest part, you were saying, is like picking out the colors. That's what I like.

Sara Ferrer: Following the pattern, but this time my mug is gonna be daisies on it. Next time my mug is gonna be striped. Like, little creativity, but a lot of predictability because the mind doesn't wanna think so much when I'm decompressing. But I also wanna be creative and have something tangible. So actually, once baby does go to daycare and those, you know, three to four hours are available, I'm signing back up for ceramics class.

Sara Ferrer: Yes. The mug queen has arrived.

Sara Ferrer: No, Sasha, 

Serena Reynolds: we're def- there's definitely a need for creativity 

Sara Ferrer: there, I feel. 

Serena Reynolds: Yes. 

Sara Ferrer: Yeah, well, but it als- That's a great question ... what else do I think, you know, I think when we talk to a lot of our focus, of course, is women in business, and that is incredibly important, and the business talk is import- But we all know that, you know, when you learn how to play an instrument, when you learn a second language, when you learn how to...

Sara Ferrer: The brain expands, and doesn't that [00:48:00] just help, like Sasha said, at the end of the day, when you're talking with people of all different paths of life, of all different perspectives. The more you're able to kind of relate on so many other levels than just kind of that black and white corporate or business talk, I think that's the power of just being a well-rounded human being.

Sara Ferrer: It's just a matter of finding the time. Finding the time. And if Sasha, if any of our listeners are, are saying, "Okay. Love Sasha's story. She's thoughtful. She gets it. Her parents were therapists. She speaks so well. She, she, she... I, I, I wanna know more about her," how do they find you? 

Sasha McDowell: Yeah. Um, the easiest way is to go to the website.

Sasha McDowell: Nobody can pronounce my business name, which is exciting. So, well, you'll have it in the show notes, but it's epicyclegroup.com, right? And there's lots of reach out to us buttons there. So that's the best way to get in touch. 

Sara Ferrer: Perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect. And then in terms of, you know, we always say to our guests, we [00:49:00] would love in the next, maybe not in the next five to eight years, 'cause that's too far out.

Sara Ferrer: Maybe in the next year, we'd love to check in, see where you're at. If anything, you know, exciting is popping up, please let us know. We always love to feature all of our guests, including you, of course, on fearlessandflawed.com. So don't be a stranger, and everyone check out Sasha. She, she gets it. She gets it from every single different angle, and it's been just such a pleasure to speak with you.

Sasha McDowell: It's been such a pleasure to speak with both of you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate it